Naming and Workshopping a Game Format Variant/Variation... (1 Viewer)

TheOffalo

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@Frogzilla posted about a SSHESHE (simultaneous super hold 'em / super hold 'em) hand last month (read that page and the first couple posts of the next page), where each player's best hand competed for half the pot, and each player's worst (second best) hand competed for the other half of the pot. @CraigT78 commented about it too. (Anyone know where this format originated? First I heard of it.)

I thought it was a very interesting variation/variant on a split pot game! If you're having trouble grasping it, I'll run through an example, using SHEHE (not super) and splitting the hand preflop to keep it simple:
  • Alice is dealt :qs::tc::2d::3d: which she splits into :qs::tc: and :2d::3d:.

  • Bob is dealt :ah::ad::ks::2c: which he splits into :ah::ad: and :ks::2c:.

  • Charlie is dealt :ac::9c::kh::9h: which he splits into :ac::9c: and :kh::9h:.
Everyone goes to showdown for the sake of the example, and the board is :3c::3s::jh::th::qh:.

Charlie would win the first half of the pot with his best hand [:kh:]:qh::jh::th:[:9h:], beating Alice's best hand [:3d:]:3c::3s::qh::jh: and Bob's best hand [:ah::ad:]:3c::3s::qh:.

Alice would win the second half of the pot with her 2nd best hand :qh:[:qs::tc:]:th::jh:beating Charlie's 2nd best hand :3c::3s:[:ac:]:qh::jh: and Bob's 2nd best hand :3c::3s:[:ks:]:qh::jh:.

(I really hope I didn't foul the example by duplicating a card or something...)

The example above is relatively straightforward, with somewhat easy decisions on the splits. But there's definitely some strategic thinking that could be deployed. Consider these two scenarios separately:
  • Charlie could have easily chosen to split his :ac::9c::kh::9h: into :ac::kh: and :9c::9h:, since an inside straight-flush draw is highly unlikely to hit, and Big Slick is a great hand even off-suit, as is a pocket pair (either have potential to win a second-best showdown). If he did that, his Nines and Threes would have been the worst hand for the first half of the pot (Alice would have won w/trip Threes), but he would have won the second half of the pot with Broadway.

    EDIT: I made a mistake in this scenario. Charlie's Broadway would have showed down first and won, then his Nines would have lost in the second showdown. I'm not going to rework the scenario, since this is just an example, but you can see that putting some thought into how you split is important.

  • If Bob's cards had slightly different suits, say :ah::as::ks::2h:, then he might have split his hand into :ah::2h: and :as::ks: if he thought double-suited with an Ace in both hands had better chances to win the second half of the pot compared to King-Deuce off-suit. He would've still lost the first half of the pot with his nut flush* against Charlie's straight flush (in the original scenario), but he would have won the second half of the pot with Broadway over Alice's Queens and Tens.
Of course if both scenarios were to happen, then Bob's nut flush would have won the first half of the pot, and he and Charlie would have chopped the second half of the pot with tied would have won the second half of the pot with Broadway. Scoop!

*Side Debate: Is an ace-high flush considered the "nut flush" when going up against a straight flush? Some say no, because a straight flush is a better flush. But I say an ace-high flush is always the "nut flush" because flush and straight flush are two separate hand rankings (with two other ranks in between them, full house and four-of-a-kind). So a straight flush is not just a better flush.

(This is turning out to be longer than I intended. I think I'm going to post the thread now, so people can start commenting, if they've been able to get through this messy post. The second part will be trying to come up with a name for the variant, since this could be applied to all kinds of games, kind of like "Crazy" can be applied to different games to determine the timing of discards...)
 
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@Frogzilla posted about a SSHESHE (simultaneous super hold 'em / super hold 'em) hand last month (read that page and the first couple posts of the next page), where each player's best hand competed for half the pot, and each player's worst (second best) hand competed for the other half of the pot. @CraigT78 commented about it too. (Anyone know where this format originated? First I heard of it.)

I thought it was a very interesting variation/variant on a split pot game! If you're having trouble grasping it, I'll run through an example, using SHEHE (splitting the hand preflop) to keep it simple:
  • Alice is dealt :qs::tc::2d::3d: which she splits into :qs::tc: and :2d::3d:.

  • Bob is dealt :ah::ad::ks::2c: which he splits into :ah::ad: and :ks::2c:.

  • Charlie is dealt :ac::9c::kh::9h: which he splits into :ac::9c: and :kh::9h:.
Everyone goes to showdown for the sake of the example, and the board is :3c::3s::jh::th::qh:.

Charlie would win the first half of the pot with his best hand [:kh:]:qh::jh::th:[:9h:], beating Alice's best hand [:3d:]:3h::3s::qh::jh: and Bob's best hand [:ah::ad:]:3h::3s::qh:.

Alice would in the second half of the pot with her 2nd best hand :qh:[:qs::tc:]:th::jh:beating Charlie's 2nd best hand :3h::3s:[:ac:]:qh::jh: and Bob's 2nd best hand :3h::3s:[:ks:]:qh::jh:.

(I really hope I didn't foul the example by duplicating a card or something...)

The example above is relatively straightforward, with somewhat easy decisions on the splits. But there's definitely some strategic thinking that could be deployed. Consider these two scenarios separately:
  • Charlie could have easily chosen to split his :ac::9c::kh::9h: into :ac::kh: and :9c::9h:, since an inside straight-flush draw is highly unlikely to hit Big Slick is a great hand even off-suit, as is a pocket pair (either could take down the second-best half of the pot). If he did that, his Nines and Threes would have been the worst hand for the first half of the pot (Alice would have won w/trip Threes), but he would have won the second half of the pot with Broadway.

  • If Bob's cards had slightly different suits, say :ah::as::ks::2h:, then he might have split his hand into :ah::2h: and :as::ks: if he thought double-suited with an Ace in both hands had better chances to win the second half of the pot compared to King-Deuce off-suit. He would've still lost the first half of the pot with his nut flush* against Charlie's straight flush (in the original scenario), but he would have won the second half of the pot with Broadway over Alice's Queens and Tens.
Of course if both scenarios were to happen, then Bob's nut flush would have won the first half of the pot, and he and Charlie would have chopped the second half of the pot with tied Broadways. Quartered!

*Side Debate: Is an ace-high flush considered the "nut flush" when going up against a straight flush? Some say no, because a straight flush is a better flush. But I say an ace-high flush is always the "nut flush" because flush and straight flush are two separate hand rankings (with two other ranks in between them, full house and four-of-a-kind). So a straight flush is not just a better flush.

(This is turning out to be longer than I intended. I think I'm going to post the thread now, so people can start commenting, if they've been able to get through this messy post. The second part will be trying to come up with a name for the variant, since this could be applied to all kinds of games, kind of like "Crazy" can be applied to different games to determine the timing of discards...)
Your example needs six cards to each player.

Split into two hands of three cards.
:2c::8c::ac: and :js::jh::jc:

Game plays half the pot for your BEST hand, and half for your other.

Cards speak. You don't get to pick what hand you play where.

Super fun game.
 
Your example needs six cards to each player.

Split into two hands of three cards.
:2c::8c::ac: and :js::jh::jc:

Game plays half the pot for your BEST hand, and half for your other.

Cards speak. You don't get to pick what hand you play where.

Super fun game.
I played it SHEHE (simultaneous hold 'em / hold 'em). I'm not that super... And it's an easy way to introduce the game without it getting too crazy (my regular group doesn't play a lot of super hold 'em).

Yes, exactly, you don't get to pick the hand. And the hand that's "ahead" when you split won't necessarily be the one competing for the first half of the pot.

I really enjoyed it!
 
(Ah, I just decided to write out the rest of my thoughts now. This is not all of it, but I figure I'd get it down before I forget...)

I've introduced this game to two separate groups of mixed games players recently, and neither group had played or heard about this before, but almost everyone from each group who tried it thought it was interesting and would play it again.

I wanted to come up with a name for this, so that we can call it during dealer's choice more easily. So far this is what I've come up with:
  • BBBS or BBBW (Best-Best, Best-Second/Worst)
  • TBTS or TBTW (Top Best, Top Second/Worst)
  • Second Best
  • Second Chance
  • Loser's Bracket
  • Encore
  • Stunt Doubles
  • Pale Imitation
  • Double Header
  • Understudy
  • Consolation
As you can see, most of the names reference what's happening for the second half of the post, because that's the distinguishing factor of this variation. I wanted a short name that invokes the concept. I'm liking "Consolation" because it's one word, and it conveys the idea decently I think (obviously, someone still has to be taught the variation first).

It also "attaches" easily to a game name, like "Consolation SOHE" or "SHESHE with a Consolation".

(Just thought of a long, impractical, wacky name for this format... Game of Thrones: Battle of the Bastards, or GoT:BotB for short. Think of the best-best showdown as the GoT high-level politicking part, and the best-worst showdown as the BotB in the trenches part. :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: )

Note that the split hand games do not have to be identical, even though the above example of SHEHE and the original game @Frogzilla mentioned was SSHESHE, both of which have each hand be the same game. As long as you're using the same hand rankings and are competing high-high (or low-low), you should be able to compare best-best and then best-worst.

For example, in Consolation SOHE, you'd be dealt 6 cards and make an Omaha hand and a Hold 'em hand. At showdown, whatever your best hand is, whether O or HE, competes for the first half of the pot, and the other hand competes for the second half.

(New Game Alert: Hold My Scrotum! You're dealt 7 cards; split into a HE hand and a Scotum hand preflop. Discard from the Scrotum hand postflop; must play everything you keep for that hand. High-high. Then you can also play Consolation Hold My Scrotum...)

A variation on a variation: A qualifier for the second half of the pot. For high-high, maybe the best-worst hand has to have a pair of Jacks, or a pair of Sixes (like in Archie), or just any pair, or better in order to win. Otherwise the best-best hand scoops.

(Not sure what kind of qualifier to put for the best-worst hand in a low-low game. Maybe no low qualifier for the best-best showdown, but then an 8-or-lower qualifier for the best-worst, but then I feel like there'll be a lot of scoops. Maybe 1-pair-or-lower for the qualifier during the best-worst showdown...?)
 
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I played it SHEHE (simultaneous hold 'em / hold 'em). I'm not that super... And it's an easy way to introduce the game (my regular group doesn't play a lot of super hold 'em).

Yes, exactly, you don't get to pick the hand. And the hand that's "ahead" when you split won't necessarily be the one competing for the first half of the pot.

I really enjoyed it!
Gotcha. Didn't realize you were changing the game.

When the orbit completes we play a bomb pot. Split after the flop. Even more Degen.
 
Gotcha. Didn't realize you were changing the game.

Yeah, one of the ideas I want to get across is that you can apply this "Consolation" (and please offer suggestions if you don't like the name) variation to all kinds of games, not just the original SSHESHE. Did you guys come up with this best-best/best-worst split pot idea?

(The main thing about the "Consolation" name that I think may not make sense to people is that usually a consolation prize is lesser than the "main" prize, whereas in this game, the pot is split evenly...)

When the orbit completes we play a bomb pot. Split after the flop. Even more Degen.
Love it!
 
Another thought I had: You can also play Consolation on non-split-card games, like Drawmaha where the pot is split. As long as you play it high-high with the same hand rankings. So for Drawmaha, your best hand between your Omaha and draw hand competes for first half of the pot, then your other hand competes for the second half. Also works for 2-or-5 Omaha, Studaha, etc.
 
I was all for it until the SOHE part; I have trouble reconciling being able to play your Omaha hands against HE hands and vice versa. If they're the same, definitely, but something in my likes to separate the two games.
 
I was all for it until the SOHE part; I have trouble reconciling being able to play your Omaha hands against HE hands and vice versa. If they're the same, definitely, but something in my likes to separate the two games.
It’d be interesting to unpack why you feel that way. But if it’s because you think one game has an “advantage” over the other, it’s basically moot in this format since you don’t get to choose which hand to play. It’s just your best hand at showdown competes first, regardless of game.

(That was another name idea I had, “Best Hand Forward”, which, unlike many of the other name ideas, references the first showdown not the second.)
 
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More name ideas:

BotB/W (Best of the Best/Worst)
BoBW (Best of Both Worlds)

The problem with a lot of these names is they’d be fine as a stand-alone game names but don’t really attach well to other game names…
 
Just bumped this thread and rereading it reminded me about Omajack, which I had wanted to try but forgot. Mentioning it here both so I can remember and also because it's semi-connected to this concept in the sense that you have to play your best two cards (no choice) for your Omaha hand to win half the pot, and the remaining two cards becomes your Blackjack hand for half the pot.

Makes you think about, if you have AJ22 and the board is such where your deuces would be your best hand (even if it loses), maybe you stay in to win the BJ. #nocontext

I like the idea of being able to hit afterwards. There's a lot of information out there with the board and face up hole cards after showdown, to maybe give keen observers an advantage on whether to hit or stand.
 
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A lot of these games flirt with the Bergs Line.

Begs Line, defined: the point at which a table of drunken idiots will have enough difficulty in discerning the winning hand(s) that the game is no longer fun.

This is all part of the syllabus of my “Hosting A Home Game While Not Quite Black Out Drunk” course. I attached a picture of your instructors as well. They are very well credentialed as you can see.

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A lot of these games flirt with the Bergs Line.

Begs Line, defined: the point at which a table of drunken idiots will have enough difficulty in discerning the winning hand(s) that the game is no longer fun.

This is all part of the syllabus of my “Hosting A Home Game While Not Quite Black Out Drunk” course. I attached a picture of your instructors as well. They are very well credentialed as you can see.

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So where do you think this variation falls in your graph? Obviously having the split hands be the same game (SHEHE, SSHESHE, etc.) are less complex than if the hands are split into different games (SHESHE, SOHE, etc.), and you can muck all the best hands after so you're left with the worst hands to compare to help with drunks.

Plus doesn't every table have a designated card-speaker, pot-splitter, etc (or two)? I usually have a few drinks, but I always try to keep my wits about me to help out. Another friend isn't a drinker and also ends up helping out.
 
I think any game where you have multiple axis of cards is over the line (so criss cross is over the line but double board or derailment isn’t) and certainly any game where you have to assess the worst hand (outside of 27-TD variants where it’s clearly 75432) and any game where the 2nd best/worst or 3rd best/worst hands are eligible to win part of the pot.

Interestingly it’s not really linear completely - introducing the low into games like stud and scrotum complicate the game to a degree but actually increase the fun.

I’ll have to redraw the line or redefine what complexity means (maybe hi vs hi-lo doesn’t add additional complexity with the right player pool, even when the booze flows like the River Thames).
 
A lot of these games flirt with the Bergs Line.

Begs Line, defined: the point at which a table of drunken idiots will have enough difficulty in discerning the winning hand(s) that the game is no longer fun.

This is all part of the syllabus of my “Hosting A Home Game While Not Quite Black Out Drunk” course. I attached a picture of your instructors as well. They are very well credentialed as you can see.

View attachment 1135391
I think you and Dana McClendon should collaborate on a women/poker themed study!


:D
 

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