One other thought I had is the A 10 suited hand gives you the ability to rep the nut flush if the Ac and a club flush draw falls.
PLO Strat Poll (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Anthony Martino
- Start date
MrCatPants
Full House
I find it strange that there is any degree of debate here. It's small, but the A10 suited hand has the multiple benefits listed by others.
I guess this is why PLO games are so soft in most places - people betting straights on flushed or paired boards, etc. Here in this comparison the difference is small and doesn't matter except on specific textures - but the gap here really widens when you apply the same thinking (that these hands are the same) to broader strategy.
For instance, regular PLO players would view 10 9 8 6 more playable than j 9 8 7 and such. But holdem players dabbling in PLO would likely like the higher gapped run down (instead of foucsing on where the gap in the rundown is)
I guess this is why PLO games are so soft in most places - people betting straights on flushed or paired boards, etc. Here in this comparison the difference is small and doesn't matter except on specific textures - but the gap here really widens when you apply the same thinking (that these hands are the same) to broader strategy.
For instance, regular PLO players would view 10 9 8 6 more playable than j 9 8 7 and such. But holdem players dabbling in PLO would likely like the higher gapped run down (instead of foucsing on where the gap in the rundown is)
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Yes, that was the 2nd item I mentioned as a benefit
More interesting question: do you play the two hands any differently?
MrCatPants
Full House
Depends on the flop and runout - but yes, on certain textures. As mentioned you have the option to bluff a nut flush/nut flush draw on an ace of clubs flushed board. On the spades, you can potentially bet the ace high flush out of position on the river and get called by king high versus checking and hoping they take a stab.
Preflop - No, post flop - typically yes, or potentially yes
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
As others chimed in, not really preflop, but post-flop potentially
And people playing their starting hands as if it is two hold'em hands without considering their connectedness.
equity calculations like AK vs 66 are obviously not the whole story - depends on how comfortable you are playing in the likely board textures. In plo games I play, where there are plenty of poor payoffs, unblocking the k-high flush is definitely worth something. I agree in tougher games it's worth less, just as flopping a set isn't worth as much when tough players know how to fold TPTK.
I bet most people were alarmed by being a minority and changed their votes just to go with the majority.
This can be right (like here, or in vaccination);
or wrong (trillions of flies eat shit, let alone that Mussolini and Hitler were voted into power by majorities).
Hitler was endorsed by the leader of a cult following, but ad populum can be a fallacy.or wrong (trillions of flies eat shit, let alone that Mussolini and Hitler were voted into power by majorities).
Check the percentages he got, Germany-wide in the 1933 (and previous) elections (on another note: interestingly, the Nazi Party's higher percentages are in Protestant areas, whereas most of the Party's leadership, including Hitler himself, were born Catholic).
He sure got endorsed and funded by Germany's Industrial Capitalists, despite the German religious Right considering him (probably correctly
) a semi-communist thug.
I think we are saying the same thingCheck the percentages he got, Germany-wide in the 1933 (and previous) elections (on another note: interestingly, the Nazi Party's higher percentages are in Protestant areas, whereas most of the Party's leadership, including Hitler himself, were born Catholic).
He sure got endorsed and funded by Germany's Industrial Capitalists, despite the German religious Right considering him (probably correctly
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
It didn't take long for my PLO strat thread to wind up in the Politics sub-forum!
Legend5555
Full House
Seriously, get this stuff out of this thread.I think we are saying the same thing
Is there actually debate? Just seems like a semantics thing. From an equity perspective, the two hands are 100% equal. But because you could potentially win more with the suited A10, that hand is certainly the better hand to hold.
SeanGecko
4 of a Kind
Check the percentages he got, Germany-wide in the 1933 (and previous) elections (on another note: interestingly, the Nazi Party's higher percentages are in Protestant areas, whereas most of the Party's leadership, including Hitler himself, were born Catholic).
He sure got endorsed and funded by Germany's Industrial Capitalists, despite the German religious Right considering him (probably correctly
MrCatPants
Full House
A notable portion of the population here thought the hands were interchangeable, and some thought the AK suited hand was better. Debate/disagreement/differing views - whatever you want to call it.
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
There are just over 270,000 different Omaha hands. These range greatly in value at either extreme but not as much in the middle. Though realizing a hand's full equity can be difficult when that equity doesn't come from a near nut sort of hand - which is why caution is in order when selecting hands. Many can be difficult to play post flop and/or in bad position.
Both hands in this poll are premium hands. Perhaps not the best of the best, but solid candidates in almost any circumstances. Yes, it is true one hand has some tiny advantages over the other. But I view this as a "rounding error" sort of thing. One doesn't have to look at many strategy threads to note how often people pay to play "less desirable" hands. Compared to those sorts of hand selection "mistakes" the difference between the hands in the poll are rather trivial.
Sure, it might make a difference, but not very often. And as noted by others in this thread - if you are at a table where these sorts of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" questions, perhaps you should find greener pastures.
Both hands in this poll are premium hands. Perhaps not the best of the best, but solid candidates in almost any circumstances. Yes, it is true one hand has some tiny advantages over the other. But I view this as a "rounding error" sort of thing. One doesn't have to look at many strategy threads to note how often people pay to play "less desirable" hands. Compared to those sorts of hand selection "mistakes" the difference between the hands in the poll are rather trivial.
Sure, it might make a difference, but not very often. And as noted by others in this thread - if you are at a table where these sorts of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" questions, perhaps you should find greener pastures.
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Certainly the naked King bluff is going to be less likely as a profit center
But I've had plenty of guys spazz with the 2nd nut flush in live games, with them doing all the heavy lifting betting it for me
It definetly makes a difference in not blocking your opponents from making the 2nd nuts
Ha. I guess we are debating. They are interchangeable. Looks like dr. Strange just explained it pretty well, so I won’t belabor. But if you guys want to laugh at people like me who said they were the same, I’ll be laughing right back.
MrCatPants
Full House
I dont think anyone is laughing or being negative? Just noting that one hand had a couple specific situation minor minor advantages to getting paid.
If you have the AT at an eight-handed table, the king will be in another hand over 58% of the time. That hand will have a second spade over 60% of the time. So your AsTs will be up against KsXs at least 35% of the time.
Of course, if you have KsXs, the same odds apply to someone else having AsXs.
Managing your play in light of those and similar figures is where profits are made.
Of course you have to rely on the power of prayer to assure that the guy dealt KsXs has a stack at least as large as yours...
Of course, if you have KsXs, the same odds apply to someone else having AsXs.
Managing your play in light of those and similar figures is where profits are made.
Of course you have to rely on the power of prayer to assure that the guy dealt KsXs has a stack at least as large as yours...
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Which corroborates my theory of NOT playing any form of Omaha against people you have any feelings for.If you have the AT at an eight-handed table, the king will be in another hand over 58% of the time, That hand will have a second spade over 60% of the time. So your AsTs will be up against KsXs at least 35% of the time.
Of course, if you have KsXs, the same odds apply to someone else having AsXs.
Managing your play in light of those and similar figures is where profits are made.
Of course you have to rely on the power of prayer to assure that the guy dealt KsXs has a stack at least as large as yours...
Can you show me the math on the king having a second spade 60% of the time? Intuitively that feels high to me but I’m not the strongest on these calcs. Genuinely curious on this.
It may seem minor in the odds of winning, but if it is the factor of winning, it would likely be a very high percentage of that sessions earnings.
Love to see the PLO convo - Kudos (thanks) @Anthony Martino
Cool math, thanks. I would have guessed a bit lower.If you have the AT at an eight-handed table, the king will be in another hand over 58% of the time, That hand will have a second spade over 60% of the time. So your AsTs will be up against KsXs at least 35% of the time.
Of course, if you have KsXs, the same odds apply to someone else having AsXs.
Managing your play in light of those and similar figures is where profits are made.
Of course you have to rely on the power of prayer to assure that the guy dealt KsXs has a stack at least as large as yours...
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