Why I think NL hold em has hurt the poker scene (2 Viewers)

[APatHand]

To me, NLHE is to poker as the revolver is to Matthew Quigley in the movie "Quigley Down Under".

I said I didn't have much use for one. Didn't say I didn't know how to use it.

 

[rummeraises]

NL Hold Em hasn't hurt the poker scene, it IS the poker scene!

I find it coincidental, that since NL hold em took over , many casinos have closed their poker rooms . In Tunica we used to have over a dozen casinos, all of them had poker rooms full of numerous poker games . Now , there are only 2 casinos left, that have a poker room, and they usually only have a few tables running , with just NL hold em.

I understand there may be other factors that are causing poker rooms to be closed down in the casinos, but I feel NL hold em is part of the reason.

 

[rummeraises]

To me, NLHE is to poker as the revolver is to Matthew Quigley in the movie "Quigley Down Under".
I said I didn't have much use for one. Didn't say I didn't know how to use it./ISPOILER]

We each get to form a opinion on such things. I have no idea how old you are, how long you been playing poker and at what stakes you play. My opinions on this subject are formed after playing poker for over 40 years, in casinos and home games along with running a poker game from my residence. Ive seen the massive changes , many of which I feel are not positive to the overall poker scene. The much higher rake at the casinos is also a big negative along with bad beat rakes becoming normal. When I used to play at the Taj and Tropicana in the 1990s { with players like Phil Ivey in $100-$200 - 7 stud games} the casino NEVER did a mandatory rake for bad beats or high hands. Now that extra rake is becoming common.

 

[Old State]

What kinda games were in your rotation? Any issues teaching noobs different games? That’s my biggest worry, scaring off newer players.

The easiest way to scare off new players is to have them bust out quickly. I had only played $1/2 NL since 2004-5 and saw how it ruins regular games. Many people, no matter what they say or how skilled they are or how much money they make, do not like losing several hundred dollars in one night. The most ridiculous part of that is how pride will trump reason. My old crew would simply not accept lowering the stakes. They rather just play every other month at $1/2 than every other week at something lower.

I started a $.25/50 game to get my neighbors and my father in laws buddies to play cash. The first of those games had only a $20 max buyin. This is very low but allowed people to manage their personal risk tollerance plus it was what they would pay for small tournament buyins. As they got more comfortable we raised it to $40. We did however take some casualties with that. After I reacquainted with @sir bluffs alot last year we started merging our poker friends. His guys were more experience than my neighbors but willing to play lower stakes and play more often. Right now it’s a pretty good game that we both are hosting. $50 is starting to be the acceptable buyin and is a good 100bb scenerio. I fear pushing past that as I’m sure we would hemorrhage players. I still have my $1/2+ crew that I could play with but actually haven’t in a while. I kind of like our new group.

NL Hold Em hasn't hurt the poker scene, it IS the poker scene!

Ha, tell that to Borgata and the other card rooms in AC. When Borgata opened and limit was the only game allowed they quickly out grew their room and built a new one 10 times the size. Now it’s pupetutually 1/3 full unless they have some big tournament in the back. And Borgata is by far the poker Mecca if AC right now. The new Hard Rock didn’t even build a poker room!

The poker boom should have created a permanent addition of poker players nationally. I wouldn’t be surprised if casino poker gets closer to pre boom numbers over the next 10 years. NL is not ideal for regular playing. Most players are too incompetent to handle NL on a regular basis. Plus the amplification of “bad beats” is sometimes enough for solid players to take a break.
Doyle Brunson saying “no limit was the Cadillac of poker” wasn’t the best for the game in the long run ...in my opinion.

 

[rummeraises]

I think its safe to say, that us poker players who have been playing for many decades and remember how full the casinos were with many variants of poker games, are more likely to have noticed the damages done by NL hold em in the current poker era. The 30 and under players / internet players, never had the opportunity to see how it used to be, therefore they cannot compare both scenarios.

 

[rummeraises]

The easiest way to scare off new players is to have them bust out quickly. I had only played $1/2 NL since 2004-5 and saw how it ruins regular games. Many people, no matter what they say or how skilled they are or how much money they make, do not like losing several hundred dollars in one night. The most ridiculous part of that is how pride will trump reason. My old crew would simply not accept lowering the stakes. They rather just play every other month at $1/2 than every other week at something lower. And Borgata is by far the poker Mecca if AC right now.

I started a $.25/50 game to get my neighbors and my father in laws buddies to play cash. The first of those games had only a $20 max buyin. This is very low but allowed people to manage their personal risk tollerance plus it was what they would pay for small tournament buyins. As they got more comfortable we raised it to $40. We did however take some casualties with that. After I reacquainted with @sir bluffs alot last year we started merging our poker friends. His guys were more experience than my neighbors but willing to play lower stakes and play more often. Right now it’s a pretty good game that we both are hosting. $50 is starting to be the acceptable buyin and is a good 100bb scenerio. I fear pushing past that as I’m sure we would hemorrhage players. I still have my $1/2+ crew that I could play with but actually haven’t in a while. I kind of like our new group.



Ha, tell that to Borgata and the other card rooms in AC. When Borgata opened and limit was the only game allowed they quickly out grew their room and built a new one 10 times the size. Now it’s pupetutually 1/3 full unless they have some big tournament in the back. The new Hard Rock didn’t even build a poker room!

The poker boom should have created a permanent addition poker players nationally. I wouldn’t be surprised if casino poker gets closer to pre boom numbers over the next 10 years. NL is not ideal for regular playing. Most players are too incompetent to handle NL on a regular basis. Plus the amplification of “bad beats” is sometimes enough for solid players to take a break.
Doyle Brunson saying “no limit was the Cadillac of poker” wasn’t the best for the game in the long run ...in my opinion.

I was a regular player in AC, when they first built the Borgota. They had a great poker room and the hottest female servants. Rumor was, the Borgata paid a extra $2 per hour to their waitresses , to steal them from the other casinos that had been established.

Some of us are old enough, to clearly see the negative impact of NL hold em on the total poker scene. Its a game that constantly wipes out peoples chip stacks in just 1 hand. Eventually, that type of gambling hurts poker overall and you end up in the scenario we are now seeing. Casinos are closing poker rooms, there are less variants of poker being spread at the casinos and if you dont wish to play NL hold em, then you are abnormal and may not find a poker game to play.

The poker scene in Tunica used to be incredible..now it is almost entirely wiped out.

 

[APatHand]

I find it coincidental, that since NL hold em took over , many casinos have closed their poker rooms . In Tunica we used to have over a dozen casinos, all of them had poker rooms full of numerous poker games . Now , there are only 2 casinos left, that have a poker room, and they usually only have a few tables running , with just NL hold em.

I understand there may be other factors that are causing poker rooms to be closed down in the casinos, but I feel NL hold em is part of the reason.

Since you have been around so long, you no doubt remember the trend of closing poker rooms just prior to the last 'boom' in poker. In AC, the trend now seems to be closing of the whole casino.
AC and to much lesser extent LV, are now having to actually compete in an expanding gambling ecosystem. I would suggest that valuing squeezing every last cent from the customer over the customer's experience has significantly led to the overall decline in gaming as much as in the closing of poker rooms.
I might also suggest that welfare economies are not a good basis of support for industries that rely largely on disposable income.

I think you are also discounting generational changes in the attraction of gambling, overall. Writ small, the pool of gamblers is shrinking. Many of those who are recently come of an age at which they can gamble would rather take pictures of their food and themselves: a casino is a place to be 'seen', not to actually gamble.

 

[APatHand]

Doyle Brunson saying “no limit was the Cadillac of poker” wasn’t the best for the game in the long run ...in my opinion.

Doyle once told a group of us that, "Hope is not a strategy."

 

[rummeraises]

Since you have been around so long, you no doubt remember the trend of closing poker rooms just prior to the last 'boom' in poker. In AC, the trend now seems to be closing of the whole casino.
AC and to much lesser extent LV, are now having to actually compete in an expanding gambling ecosystem. I would suggest that valuing squeezing every last cent from the customer over the customer's experience has significantly led to the overall decline in gaming as much as in the closing of poker rooms.
I might also suggest that welfare economies are not a good basis of support for industries that rely largely on disposable income.

I remember a lot in regards to how poker used to be. Keep in mind, im not claiming that NL hold em, is the ONLY reason the poker scene has had negative aspects in the current era. I do feel it is a factor though.

I think its important to recognize, that many of the players whom claim NL hold em is king and poker is better then ever, are gonna be younger generation players who were not even born or part of the poker scene in the 1980s- 2000 .

Doyle once told a group of us that, "Hope is not a strategy."

True...then again didn't he win major tournaments by getting very lucky and playing 10-2 offsuit , which is considered 1 of the worst hands in the game ? Yes, that luck factor is VERY important especially in a game like NL hold em.

 

[Moxie Mike]

OP seems to have an axe to grind - some may indulge that rabbit hole but I need to respectfully pass on that discussion. Promotional rake is here to stay, and while I don't like it anymore than anyone else, those promos have the undeniable effect put asses in seats, and to the casual player, this is a very good thing.

My take is that Holdem - and more explicitly NLHE has been a double-edged sword. Think about how poker was perceived by the average recreational gambler before the boom; you'd walk by the card room in the casino and look curiously in to see tables full of people who all seemed to know what they were doing without the appearance of being there to have the best time possible. It looked... serious. Serious=intimidating. And intimidating games in casinos don't attract casual players.

The Poker Boom changed all that.

The WPT and the Moneymaker effect made 'poker' seem simple and easy to understand. The mechanics of Holdem are easy to explain as the opening credits roll... 20 seconds into the broadcast everyone watching knows how the game works, and being NL you can bet as much or all of your money as you want at any time.

"NL Holdem: The game that takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to master." - Mike Sexton. The game really is as simple as it sounds.

Compare that to stud games where the betting stakes are fixed, change on 5th street and the action order changes from street to street. Then you throw in elements like some cards are dealt face up, others are down, some games are hi/lo split (but only if a qualifier is met)... while others are designed to make the worst hand possible (Razz)... it just sounds complicated with a lot of rules and procedures to keep track of.

So if you're that casino patron in 2000 looking for a new experience to try, were you really going to sit in that stud game with all those players who seemingly have been doing this for years? Or are you going to just go try your luck at blackjack, craps roulette or video poker... all of which you can dip your toe in and learn at your own pace without risking a lot?

So the introduction and reduction of the intimidation factor has been a good thing to attract millions of new players to the game... which is essential to the ecosystem of any activity. But there's been a cost.

The proliferation of NL Holdem cash games has made virtually every other form of poker appear to be exponentially more intimidating to players who've never been exposed to it. Just grasping the small mechanical difference between Omaha and Holdem is far too complex for the player who's perception of poker is that HE is the standard and all other forms of the game are peripheral. This is not a good thing.

I don't necessarily think casinos prefer to spread one form of poker over another. They're a business providing a service... so they run the game people want to play. Right now, that game for better or worse is NLHE.

I for one would love to see more stud games spread in casinos. But it's probably not going to happen anytime soon unless someone makes it sexy. For that, you need TV.

 

[rummeraises]

In the end, the casinos seem to be a last resort for players like myself, that remember the good ole days of poker. Casinos have more then doubled their rake and added in mandatory bullshit , like raking for high hand/bad beats or " full kill" rules.

Its possible that even home games that did not have high rake, have been hurt by the NL hold em craze.

I remember when moneymaker got LUCKY and won the WSOP and it was constantly broadcast on our tv sets. I told my wife back then, that this " hysteria" would end up hurting the overall poker scene in the casinos. It took many years, but it eventually happened.

 

[rummeraises]

OP seems to have an axe to grind - some may indulge that rabbit hole but I need to respectfully pass on that discussion.

You could say that. Over the weekend, I called 12 casinos in Florida, thinking that at least a couple of them would have games like 7stud or hi lo stud. None of them had it . To make matters worse, all 12 casinos had changed the rake structure from $5 on a $100 pot to $7 on a $50 pot.

I miss the days when the casinos had many variants of live poker , but now its 90% hold em. I also think its ashamed that the rake has increased by such a huge percentage. Do I have a axe to grind ? Maybe , but its more of me voicing my disappointment in regards to my opinions that the overall poker scene has gotten worse and less options for table games. For those of us that do not worship NL hold em, or flop games , we have very few options left when it comes to playing poker in the casinos.

 

[Old State]

This article pretty much sums up the topic at hand. It’s a very good read.

http://www.titanpoker.com/no-limit-vs-limit-argument.html

 

[APatHand]

I for one would love to see more stud games spread in casinos. But it's probably not going to happen anytime soon unless someone makes it sexy. For that, you need TV.

I could play without a shirt.
Seriously, change doesn't happen with out work. If you want to change the games and culture around where you play, organize like minded players and work with 'the house' to spread the games you want. Organizing a game in a casino setting is done the same way you would in a home setting: find a day and time suitable for your player pool, work to expand the player pool, get the game spread where non-pool players can see it, make it affordable and fun.
These things are not impossible. They don't happen overnight, but if you can get one instance organized, mlre will follow.

I joined a few like minded mix game players for a game about once a month, then it was going every week, now it goes about 4 or 5 times week, at two different limits with interest in another. That group is now about 9 months running and has changed cardrooms 3 times. We even got the house to give us a reduced hourly seat charge over the NL and PL games they spread!
It all started with a talk with management, who posted on their facebook page asking if anyone was interested. Then one player assembled the player list and now contacts players about game times.
But, none of this happened without work. So find like minded players and talk to management about hosting the game you want.

 

[Moxie Mike]

One other thought - have you ever stopped to consider why those other games and betting structures are rarely spread? I mean - NLHE is the prevailing cash game now - but that didn't displace FL games; it replaced them.

There's no logical reason those games couldn't have run concurrently if there'd been enough demand. But that's not what happened. Whether you like it or not, NLHE is preferable to all other forms of poker for it's simplicity if nothing else. The old FL guys are now playing NL because that's where the action is.

 

[rummeraises]

So if you're that casino patron in 2000 looking for a new experience to try, were you really going to sit in that stud game with all those players who seemingly have been doing this for years? Or are you going to just go try your luck at blackjack, craps roulette or video poker... all of which you can dip your toe in and learn at your own pace without risking a lot?

So the introduction and reduction of the intimidation factor has been a good thing to attract millions of new players to the game... which is essential to the ecosystem of any activity. But there's been a cost.

The proliferation of NL Holdem cash games has made virtually every other form of poker appear to be exponentially more intimidating to players who've never been exposed to it. Just grasping the small mechanical difference between Omaha and Holdem is far too complex for the player who's perception of poker is that HE is the standard and all other forms of the game are peripheral. This is not a good thing.

I don't necessarily think casinos prefer to spread one form of poker over another. Their a business providing a service... so they run the game people want to play. Right now, that game for better or worse is NLHE.

I for one would love to see more stud games spread in casinos. But it's probably not going to happen anytime soon unless someone makes it sexy. For that, you need TV.

I could play without a shirt.
Seriously, change doesn't happen with out work. If you want to change the games and culture around where you play, organize like minded players and work with 'the house' to spread the games you want. Organizing a game in a casino setting is done the same way you would in a home setting: find a day and time suitable for your player pool, work to expand the player pool, get the game spread where non-pool players can see it, make it affordable and fun.
These things are not impossible. They don't happen overnight, but if you can get one instance organized, mlre will follow.

I joined a few like minded mix game players for a game about once a month, then it was going every week, now it goes about 4 or 5 times week, at two different limits with interest in another. That group is now about 9 months running and has changed cardrooms 3 times. We even got the house to give us a reduced hourly seat charge over the NL and PL games they spread!
It all started with a talk with management, who posted on their facebook page asking if anyone was interested. Then one player assembled the player list and now contacts players about game times.
But, none of this happened without work. So find like minded players and talk to management about hosting the game you want.

Excellent response.

One other thought - have you ever stopped to consider why those other games and betting structures are rarely spread? I mean - NLHE is the prevailing cash game now - but that didn't displace FL games; it replaced them.

There's no logical reason those games couldn't have run concurrently if there'd been enough demand. But that's not what happened. Whether you like it or not, NLHE is preferable to all other forms of poker for it's simplicity if nothing else. The old FL guys are now playing NL because that's where the action is.

Agreed.

The #1 reason why NL hold em took over though, is because of TV glorifying and promoting it. People saw that no name amateurs like Moneymaker could get lucky and become rich thru this game of hold em. Like many things in life, the TV has the power to mold opinions , create fads and popularize things that would not have been as popular.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I could play without a shirt.

Best idea to come from this discussion so far

Seriously, change doesn't happen with out work. If you want to change the games and culture around where you play, organize like minded players and work with 'the house' to spread the games you want. Organizing a game in a casino setting is done the same way you would in a home setting: find a day and time suitable for your player pool, work to expand the player pool, get the game spread where non-pool players can see it, make it affordable and fun.
These things are not impossible. They don't happen overnight, but if you can get one instance organized, mlre will follow.

I joined a few like minded mix game players for a game about once a month, then it was going every week, now it goes about 4 or 5 times week, at two different limits with interest in another. That group is now about 9 months running and has changed cardrooms 3 times. We even got the house to give us a reduced hourly seat charge over the NL and PL games they spread!
It all started with a talk with management, who posted on their facebook page asking if anyone was interested. Then one player assembled the player list and now contacts players about game times.
But, none of this happened without work. So find like minded players and talk to management about hosting the game you want.

I did exactly what you described over the last 6 months - just without the casino's help. I now run a semi-regular mixed FL game with a great group of players.

 

[nitzilla]

Almost 50 posts and no one used this yet.........c'mon people, get it together.....
And I hear ya OP, I hate paying for the "lottery" I've never won in cash games...... (BBJs)

 

[APatHand]

Best idea to come from this discussion so far



I did exactly what you described over the last 6 months - just without the casino's help. I now run a semi-regular mixed FL game with a great group of players.

That's great!
I found that having an ally in the poker management to be very helpful. They don't really care if you and to play 7-stud or pan, they just want the room to be successful which means dealers working, butts in the seats and cards in the air.

 

[rummeraises]

Old man yelling ? How about " middle aged man yelling " ? lol

 

[APatHand]

Almost 50 posts and no one used this yet.........c'mon people, get it together.....
And I hear ya OP, I hate paying for the "lottery" I've never won in cash games...... (BBJs)

View attachment 267984

I had an onion on my belt, which was the fashion at the time...

 

[rummeraises]

Theres no doubt, if I lived close to a casino that had a poker room, I would try to get a game like $20-$40- 7 stud hi lo going.

 

[nitzilla]

Old man yelling ? How about " middle aged man yelling " ? lol

Right there with you.....

 

[rummeraises]

I had an onion on my belt, which was the fashion at the time...

I understand some players feel that NL hold em is the only real poker game . I also understand that many players do not care that the rake has changed from $5 on a $100 pot to $7 on a $50 pot. In fact, many young players may not even be aware that the casinos had such a massive increase in their rake. Sometimes ignorance can be less stressful.

 

[Old State]

Another interesting thread. The comments from Sklanski and Malmuth are interesting.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/...-no-limit-ultimately-been-good-poker-1549587/

If you don’t want to read it Malmuth agrees that it is hurting poker long term. No Limit magnifies mistakes as well as bad beats. It discourages newer players from playing again. He advised casinos in the early 90’s to avoid NL and pot limit games as he felt it didn’t provide the balance of luck and skill needed for long term health of the game.

I agree with that to an extent but I think NL is even discouraging to good players with lower risk tolerance levels because of the first point.

When my home game was limit, the better players would simply win more pots and more often than others. With NL it seems most of the money is made in two to three pots in an hours long session. You try to pick up small pots to cover the cost of missed draws, etc but most of the winning (and losses) often come in a few pots. This I actually find annoying. In my $1/2 game I’ve seen several of my friends be down for the first 6 hours and then win to massive pots in the last hour. Did they play great poker and have a great night? I guess, but it can be both stressful and boring.

My luck usually runs opposite....on a good night I’ll build a nice stack winning several medium sized pots only to be hornswagled in the last 15 for half my stack.

 

[rummeraises]

Another interesting thread. The comments from Sklanski and Malmuth are interesting.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/...-no-limit-ultimately-been-good-poker-1549587/

Yes...very interesting. In general, I think you will find that the younger players, who were not playing decades ago , are gonna claim NL hold em has helped the poker scene massively. Unfortunately these younger players do not have the experience to compare todays poker scene, to the poker scene a few decades ago.

Hopefully one day, we will see the mid range limit stakes become popular again { $10-$20 or $15-$30 } in games like 7stud / hi lo stud. These were great games, where you could win good money, but you would not have to risk your whole stack , on just 2 cards , which often happens in NL hold em.

 

[trever]

Looking at Nevada:
1992 - 92 rooms with 564 tables
2002 - 57 rooms with 386 tables
2008 - 113 rooms with 913 tables
2012 - 99 rooms with 809 tables
2018 - 62 rooms with 599 tables

Poker was dying, nlhe gave it a reprieve, which is now fading.

Personally, I've already spent enough of my life sharing a table with enmiserated limit stud regs who would rather shart broken glass than tip a waitress, but that's probably just me.

 

[Poker Zombie]

57 posts in, and nobody points out the rise and fall of poker rooms falls in line with the economy.

NL isn't hurting poker. Like @APatHand points out, recreational players aren't concerned with their bankroll. I've seen large stacks wagered on a single number on a roulette wheel. They want the big payout. Gamblers flock to progressive slot machines, because they want the big payout. Players demand Bad Beat Jackpots, because they love the big payout. Powerball lotteries pull far more money than poker rooms, because of the dream of binking the big pot.

This adrenaline rush may not sit well with your old man middle-aged man attitudes, but you are not the casino's chief demographic. They are going after the younger generation - their numbers are greater than your own, and will be around longer.

Back in the 90s, the max casino rake was $5 on a $100 pot. I called 12 casinos in Florida and all of them are now raking $5 on a $50 pot and they take $2 out for bad beat hand . This means on a $50 pot, they are taking out $7

I guess you are going to blame No-Limit for casinos for dumping the 3:2 payout on blackjack too? No Limit charges for increased parking fees in Vegas? Casinos are squeezing every penny, from every angle they can. It's not the fault of No Limit.

 

[rummeraises]

Personally, I've already spent enough of my life sharing a table with enmiserated limit stud regs who would rather shart broken glass than tip a waitress, but that's probably just me.

Complete strawman reply and pure bullshit. You insinuate that all limit stud players are so cheap they wont tip and that NL hold em players are the perfect example of charity and tipping. Do you believe your own bullshit ? I sure dont.

I guess you are going to blame No-Limit for casinos for dumping the 3:2 payout on blackjack too? No Limit charges for increased parking fees in Vegas? Casinos are squeezing every penny, from every angle they can. It's not the fault of No Limit.

No im not , but it seems like there are a lot of people on this forum,. who like to make baseless strawman arguments.

 

[Old State]

I’m 44 and started playing straight poker only a few years before the boom. Started with 7stud playing with my buddy’s in-laws who had a regular game since the 50’s. I first played in casinos shortly after but it was enough to see the change. If you remember the boom had started about two years before casinos started spreading NL. I strongly believe they started NL cash because so many people just learning the game from TV didn’t completely realize the difference between the tournaments they were watching and cash poker at a casino and were asking for it. At that time I also subscribed to Card Player Magazine and from what I was reading NL was rare even among high stakes professional players even through the mid to later 2000’s.