What is going on with Kem? (1 Viewer)

[FortunesFool]

Hi, I was hoping to get some advice about Kem cards.. Given their classic status and high praise, I was so excited to finally try them. I bought a sealed set on eBay and upon opening them up, there was a heavy "crackle" effect to the surface of the cards (photos below).. from what i read, it is possibly humidity related... anyway, I returned them, the seller was cool, no issues. While looking around, I notice the reviews on amazon are horrendous with many people having similar issues and other quality control problems.. With these issues being so prevalent, as well as the pixelated jokers... my question is; Is there a preferred or more reputable source for getting Kems? and is it even worth it?? I'm honestly a little nervous about buying them now. Have they just gone on auto pilot off their reputation and are cutting corners? I am aware of the bowing issues of acetate cards and am prepared for that, but all this other stuff just seems crazy for some of the most expensive cards on the market. I would appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thanks!

 

[pokerplayingpisces]

IMHO, I think their quality has gone down since they were bought by USPCC. Their prices have always risen, but like a lot of companies (post-pandemic), their prices seemed to have skyrocketed.
I am still a huge fan, and I still think the best cards on the planet is a freshly-opened setup of Kems.
That being said, I cannot recommend them to anyone. Not at that price point, declining quality, and not sure how long the product is going to remain usable after opening it.
There are cheaper/more available options including; Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.
I’m not buying anymore Kems, and again, cannot recommend them.

 

[mr11]

@Spinettis Gaming was selling used set ups around Black Friday for $18 (about $30 shipped for me). Not sure if there are any left still but probably best price for Kems. Could be worth a PM if you’re interested.

I really like the Kems that I have but haven’t tried the others so I can’t give a recommendation. From threads I’ve seen, I’d say the general consensus is that Kems are great but also this:

Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.

 

[bubz_davis]

There are cheaper/more available options including; Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.
I’m not buying anymore Kems, and again, cannot recommend them.

Cant forget Broken Arrow Professional series. The red and blue circle back cards are some of the best cards ive used, period. They are cheaper than anything out there also.

 

[Poker Zombie]

You aren't the only one. Kems frequently warp and often turn "scaley".

We buy plastic cards because they are significantly better than plastic (unless you throw out the paper deck every 5 hours or so). Then there's the stretch for the best. Which is the best is often debated on the forum, showing that the improvement between plastic cards tends to be relatively minor. I currently have 15 different card types in my stable. I have preferences, but not to the level that no deck gets played.

In short, find a plastic deck you like and that fits your budget.

 

[upNdown]

I own pre-USPCC KEMs and current KEMs, and I’m not convinced there’s a difference. I am convinced they’re the very best handling plastic cards in the world, though that’s subjective - some people like cards that snap.
But they’re finicky - they can get bowed, and sometimes you’ll get a crackly setup like the one pictured here (I think they got cooked at some point; maybe in a mailbox or in a truck in the desert.) None of that matters though, because their price is stupid. $75 per setup? NO!
To answer your question though, Amazon usually has the most competitive price. I’d never buy them (or any playing cards) used.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

KEMs are dogwater. You got the correct product, its just a bad one. The Emperor is naked my friend.

Come join us on the dark side. We have Fournier, Broken Arrow, Desjgn, Bicycle, NTP, and Angels, and we can store our cards without silly rituals or humidors.

 

[Jaxen]

I still have a setup of Kem Arrows I'm able to keep from warping thanks to creative storage, and a few of my WSOP setups from the 2010s are Kems as well. I'll use the heck out of them until I can't, then won't replace them.
Future buys will likely all be Broken Arrows. Eagerly awaiting the Tangiers blood-and-sand to reach the group buy plateau.

 

[RocAFella1]

@Kam

 

[FortunesFool]

Thank you to everyone for the input! I really appreciate it. I love Broken Arrow and have bought a bunch of them, I agree that they are an incredible value. I also have Dal Negro Texas Hold'em, Copag Texas Hold'em, Copag 4 Color, Modiano Platinum, Statesman, and I also have Fournier 2800, 2818, 2826, and modiano bridge on order via the Xdan Group Buy that just closed out. : )

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Hi, I was hoping to get some advice about Kem cards.. Given their classic status and high praise, I was so excited to finally try them. I bought a sealed set on eBay and upon opening them up, there was a heavy "crackle" effect to the surface of the cards (photos below).. from what i read, it is possibly humidity related... anyway, I returned them, the seller was cool, no issues. While looking around, I notice the reviews on amazon are horrendous with many people having similar issues and other quality control problems.. With these issues being so prevalent, as well as the pixelated jokers... my question is; Is there a preferred or more reputable source for getting Kems? and is it even worth it?? I'm honestly a little nervous about buying them now. Have they just gone on auto pilot off their reputation and are cutting corners? I am aware of the bowing issues of acetate cards and am prepared for that, but all this other stuff just seems crazy for some of the most expensive cards on the market. I would appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thanks!

What do you mean? Those are just KEMs new " scaly marble" series.

 

[Spinettis Gaming]

@Spinettis Gaming was selling used set ups around Black Friday for $18 (about $30 shipped for me). Not sure if there are any left still but probably best price for Kems. Could be worth a PM if you’re interested.

I really like the Kems that I have but haven’t tried the others so I can’t give a recommendation. From threads I’ve seen, I’d say the general consensus is that Kems are great but also this:

We have about 15 black and gold bridge standard setups left if anyone is interested.

They won't last forever.

Please send me a PM if interested.

 

[Josh Kifer]

@Kam

Couldn't agree more. What's with that guy!

 

[Spinettis Gaming]

And they are $17.95 a setup.

 

[davdave]

Jumping in this thread for some guidance. Long story, but I recently sold some unopened KEM Arrow setups (30 in total, combo of wide and narrow) that were previously owned by a deceased relative. The buyer has opened a setup and asked me about the texture (closeup picture attached). This seems to be consistent with the OP post.
Can anyone who uses KEM cards tell me if this just part of the expected texture, or is this some kind of defect?
And if it's a defect, does anyone know if this likely to be a widespread issue across KEM Arrow cards, or is it random or affect certain setups more than others?
I don't know much about KEMs, nor the anatomy of playing cards in general. I'm trying to determine if the buyer should be compensated so I'd appreciate any insights. Thanks!

 

[Poker Zombie]

It's common enough that is is a known condition of KEMs. Nobody really knows why, but it is likely from heat/cold cycling. Since that would be a by-product of storage, I would expect the seller to refund the purchase.

 

[upNdown]

Jumping in this thread for some guidance. Long story, but I recently sold some unopened KEM Arrow setups (30 in total, combo of wide and narrow) that were previously owned by a deceased relative. The buyer has opened a setup and asked me about the texture (closeup picture attached). This seems to be consistent with the OP post.
Can anyone who uses KEM cards tell me if this just part of the expected texture, or is this some kind of defect?
And if it's a defect, does anyone know if this likely to be a widespread issue across KEM Arrow cards, or is it random or affect certain setups more than others?
I don't know much about KEMs, nor the anatomy of playing cards in general. I'm trying to determine if the buyer should be compensated so I'd appreciate any insights. Thanks!

View attachment 1648648

Yeah, that is bad. This is the texture on a Kem.

 

[golosefast]

It's common enough that is is a known condition of KEMs. Nobody really knows why, but it is likely from heat/cold cycling. Since that would be a by-product of storage, I would expect the seller to refund the purchase.

its the loss of plasticiser on the surface of the cellulose acetate that causes the surface to become somewhat brittle and develop those cracks

 

[upNdown]

its the loss of plasticiser on the surface of the cellulose acetate that causes the surface to become somewhat brittle and develop those cracks

Any idea what causes that?

 

[golosefast]

Any idea what causes that?

usually just comes with age and play, ive heard storing them in an airtight container might slow down the aging, dont quote me on that tho

 

[Old State]

I own A LOT of different brands of cards….like almost every brand in existence. I came to this this trying to find a cheaper alternator Kem cards that also didn’t have the tendency to bow if not stored ideally (Upside down with a cut card on top…cheap dealer button too even better…indoor temps and humidity). I spent 15 years and hundreds and hundreds dollars and didn’t find an alternative until about a year ago. Angel acetate cards that need to be bought from Japan via Japanese Amazon..

That said I obviously did this because I absolutely love the way Kem cards feel. There is nothing that comes close.… Except for Angel cards

Having owned Kem cards since 2002 both pre-and post USPC time I can say the following things with absolute certainty

• There is zero difference between pre-and post USPC cards. I would bet money that no one could tell the difference handling and looking both at decks.
• There is also zero difference in their tendency to bow or not to bow between those two times of manufacturing
• The cracks you see are absolutely 100% not normal. These cards are probably stored for many many years in non-ideal temperatures. You can see the date on the ace of spades. You should take a picture and I can tell you what year they were made. These are being sold on eBay likely because they were known to have an issue and we’re trying to find someone to buy them. Unfortunately, that person was you.
• They always were slightly more expensive, but now are exceedingly more expensive. I don’t know why they did this other than to purposely limit their sales to the private market.
• Because of this price hike, I can absolutely not recommend them to anyone anymore and I would steer them towards Angel cards if you want that luxurious feel of Kem without the price and storage problems. As of right now, my Angel cards seem to have stayed completely flat.
• Despite some of the hate by a small but vocal group here, people who love Kem cards do so because of their unique soft feel. Outside of Angel there is literally not a single manufacturer of cards on the planet that even comes close.
• Despite the hate here, they are still the overwhelming choice of every major casino card room in Atlantic City, Vegas, and elsewhere. To be honest, I’ve never played in a casino card room that wasn’t using Kem cards, though I do see Copags on Poker vlogs at some small California and Texas card rooms. There is a brand called Queens that I’ve seen used on Poker vlogs at some really random no name card rooms around the country. But if you go and play poker at Bellagio, the Wynn, Aria….Borgata and Harrahs in AC, etc. you will only find Kem cards being used. They are obviously not the cheapest card to buy so there must be a reason casinos continue to choose them.

 

[Old State]

I also highly recommend NOT buying used Kems. They are often old casino decks that have been used abused and run through shufflers 1000s of times. They usually come bowed

 

[KHarp1]

As an owner of about 20 decks of KEM, some dating back to the early 40's up to a couple of decks bought last year, I can say that they are the most temperamental cards in existence. They feel different than anything else, yes, but, I do very little holding of my cards once they are dealt. I see no consistency in how they wear, some will bow within a few minutes of opening, some still look great over 80 years old. At today's price point I could NEVER recommend them. The ones that bow immediately I've kept in a controlled environment until opening. I never open a deck straight out of the mailbox. The last few times I've bought I've bought at least two decks just for the sake of comparison, and, sometimes one is junk, the other not.

 

[rum3002576]

I own A LOT of different brands of cards….like almost every brand in existence. I came to this this trying to find a cheaper alternator Kem cards that also didn’t have the tendency to bow if not stored ideally (Upside down with a cut card on top…cheap dealer button too even better…indoor temps and humidity). I spent 15 years and hundreds and hundreds dollars and didn’t find an alternative until about a year ago. Angel acetate cards that need to be bought from Japan via Japanese Amazon..

That said I obviously did this because I absolutely love the way Kem cards feel. There is nothing that comes close.… Except for Angel cards

Having owned Kem cards since 2002 both pre-and post USPC time I can say the following things with absolute certainty

• There is zero difference between pre-and post USPC cards. I would bet money that no one could tell the difference handling and looking both at decks.
• There is also zero difference in their tendency to bow or not to bow between those two times of manufacturing
• The cracks you see are absolutely 100% not normal. These cards are probably stored for many many years in non-ideal temperatures. You can see the date on the ace of spades. You should take a picture and I can tell you what year they were made. These are being sold on eBay likely because they were known to have an issue and we’re trying to find someone to buy them. Unfortunately, that person was you.
• They always were slightly more expensive, but now are exceedingly more expensive. I don’t know why they did this other than to purposely limit their sales to the private market.
• Because of this price hike, I can absolutely not recommend them to anyone anymore and I would steer them towards Angel cards if you want that luxurious feel of Kem without the price and storage problems. As of right now, my Angel cards seem to have stayed completely flat.
• Despite some of the hate by a small but vocal group here, people who love Kem cards do so because of their unique soft feel. Outside of Angel there is literally not a single manufacturer of cards on the planet that even comes close.
• Despite the hate here, they are still the overwhelming choice of every major casino card room in Atlantic City, Vegas, and elsewhere. To be honest, I’ve never played in a casino card room that wasn’t using Kem cards, though I do see Copags on Poker vlogs at some small California and Texas card rooms. There is a brand called Queens that I’ve seen used on Poker vlogs at some really random no name card rooms around the country. But if you go and play poker at Bellagio, the Wynn, Aria….Borgata and Harrahs in AC, etc. you will only find Kem cards being used. They are obviously not the cheapest card to buy so there must be a reason casinos continue to choose them.

do you happen to have a link you can share? i cannot find them

 

[Old State]

do you happen to have a link you can share? i cannot find them

For Angels? Unfortunately after I posted this I went out to the Japanese Amazon and they are sold out

 

[Timmah]

For the price, buy Broken Arrow professional series. I’m hoping they bring back the compass design. At around $11 a set up, cheaper if you preorder, you can’t beat it. I bought 30 setups of the blue and red circles. They’re used once then retired. No worries about marked card, intentional or otherwise.

 

[Radkowity]

For Angels? Unfortunately after I posted this I went out to the Japanese Amazon and they are sold out

A lot of people here said Angels are the closest to KEM in terms of the "feel" . Is it true they only come in bridge size? (if they come at all since they are out of stock on japanese amazon as we speak)

What would be the closest 3rd option? Broken arrows, faded spade, modiano platinum? Copags have that yellowish hue which i didnt like.

 

[plsren]

Wish I checked this thread before buying KEMs, thanks for all the alternates.

 

[Old State]

A lot of people here said Angels are the closest to KEM in terms of the "feel" . Is it true they only come in bridge size? (if they come at all since they are out of stock on japanese amazon as we speak)

What would be the closest 3rd option? Broken arrows, faded spade, modiano platinum? Copags have that yellowish hue which i didnt like.

They are 100% the closest to Kems but specifically the green box knew now sold out in Japanese Amazon

 

[Old State]

Wish I checked this thread before buying KEMs, thanks for all the alternates.

all you had to do was check the price. They are CLEARLY not interested in selling to the public. It’s almost like they are deterring sales to the public. There are no cards worth $75 a setup…and I love Kems. Again, I never paid more than $23. Amazon used to have random sales…but haven’t seen that since before covid