Tourney Using two decks? (1 Viewer)

[JustinInMN]

I’ve played in hundreds of games with two decks and have hosted hundred games with one deck. Two decks never work out smoothly. People passing around piles of cards..

Almost all games I play have two decks and there is no comparison to single deck games. @TexRex is right. If the next deck is ready for dealing when the last pot is pushed it saves that shuffling time, every time. The only way time is liot is if shuffling a hand distracts action. I think that's possible in shorter games, say 5 or fewer players

But my experience does not share the notion that it is only good in theory. It plays faster.

 

[Old State]

Old State, we have a dealer responsible for each deck. If a guy just won a hand, and he would normally shuffle next, the next dealer picks someone else to shuffle or does it himself.

During that 15 seconds of shuffling, and that's a very short time, we are playing the next hand. Every 8 hands, that's 2 minutes we are playing and a single deck is shuffling.

Here's a thread where this came up and you can see what other PCFers said about our system. https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...e-entire-final-table.33141/page-2#post-617126

Ideally yes, but no game runs that smooth. As soon as someone takes too long getting back from a bathroom break, etc all the perceived time is wasted.

 

[JustinInMN]

Ideally yes, but no game runs that smooth. As soon as someone takes too long getting back from a bathroom break, etc all the perceived time is wasted.

Well that time would be wasted in single deck yes? Usually in that instance if the player due to shuffle has to get up the player to the right does an extra turn, its not a big deal. One guy in one of my games doesn't have the range of motion in his arms to shuffle, we always help him out and still run two decks without issue.

 

[TexRex]

Old State, we have scheduled breaks. If a dealer needs a break, we have others who could step in temporarily. At the main table, I sit next to one of the dealers and can take over for either one if necessary.

Is it possible that on rare occasions there is a breakdown? Of course, but the key word is rare. On average, while the cards are being gathered from the previous hand, the next dealer is starting to deal.

Over time, almost every player has commented that our pace of play is very fast compared to most other games.

Also, it's not perceived time. I actually clock our pace, at least at the main table since I always start at that table. We consistently average just less than 2 minutes a hand. I don't know that the other table goes that fast because it's in a different room, but when I have moved to it, I see no real difference in the pace.

What makes it work is I've systematized it and the dealers help keep it moving.

 

[WedgeRock]

What the two-deck camp doesn't acknowledge is that avoiding confusion between the two decks eats time. Whether it's waiting for cards to be collected before starting the next deal, or dealing over/around the cards being shuffled...

It's a close call either way and really depends on your guys.

 

[JustinInMN]

What the two-deck camp doesn't acknowledge is that avoiding confusion between the two decks eats time. Whether it's waiting for cards to be collected before starting the next deal, or dealing over/around the cards being shuffled...

It's a close call either way and really depends on your guys.

Which is why I am converted on the shuffle behind method. It's the smallest interference and as long as the deck backs are distinct, there shouldn't be mix ups.

 

[AK Chip]

I have done it both ways and big blind shuffle is the best for multiple reasons.

Big blind is last to act in next hand and you never pass cards in front of the dealer being the main reasons.

Takes some getting used to but smoother once you do it.

Grant

This how we do it at our games. Tournaments not cash games.

 

[TexRex]

Wedge, I agree that with a lot of 2-deck systems, there is sometimes confusion. With a rotating deal, I suspect there are more redeals regardless of whether 1 or 2 decks is being used.

I sought to eliminate as much of that confusion as possible, and limit the number of redeals. Our dealers are all experienced, so they make fewer mistakes, but they do still make mistakes.

My dealers are all competent at shuffling reasonably quickly, though not at the 15 second level generally. They learn who is not good at shuffling and just don't have those people do the shuffling. We tell people to help the dealers with shuffling and give dealers a lot of latititude is how they do it. It works, but only because I spent time figuring out how to make it work.

 

[AK Chip]

I have to add we have a dedicated dealer. Dealer finishes the hand pushes cards to BB the SB hands dealer shuffled deck to the dealer.

 

[Old State]

Over time, almost every player has commented that our pace of play is very fast compared to most other games.

I received that very same compliment many times by two deck players! When they see a table full of people that can effectively perform a riffle riffle strip riffle they quickly realize the time “saved” with two decks is now non existent and the table has far less clutter.
In a two deck system the next dealer is usually waiting at the ready for way more than 15 seconds while the table is cleared of cards and chips from the last hand.

I also never allow a dealer button unless there is a dedicated dealer. Otherwise the dealer button is pointless and only slows down the game when it’s not moved and people start to debate where it should be or deal to the wrong player.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Almost all games I play have two decks and there is no comparison to single deck games. @TexRex is right. If the next deck is ready for dealing when the last pot is pushed it saves that shuffling time, every time. The only way time is liot is if shuffling a hand distracts action. I think that's possible in shorter games, say 5 or fewer players

But my experience does not share the notion that it is only good in theory. It plays faster.

Agreed. When we get down to three players we go to one deck. Works more smoothly short handed.

 

[WedgeRock]

Wedge, I agree that with a lot of 2-deck systems, there is sometimes confusion. With a rotating deal, I suspect there are more redeals regardless of whether 1 or 2 decks is being used.

I sought to eliminate as much of that confusion as possible, and limit the number of redeals. Our dealers are all experienced, so they make fewer mistakes, but they do still make mistakes.

My dealers are all competent at shuffling reasonably quickly, though not at the 15 second level generally. They learn who is not good at shuffling and just don't have those people do the shuffling. We tell people to help the dealers with shuffling and give dealers a lot of latititude is how they do it. It works, but only because I spent time figuring out how to make it work.

I'm not saying one deck is better. I'm not saying two decks is better. It's close either way. For some groups, one will be faster. For others, two decks it's faster.

In tournaments, we always use 2 decks and shuffle behind, dealer cuts. We've been doing it that way for 15 years. I've played where the SB shuffles, the last dealer cuts and the shuffler/new dealer deals. That worked for that group. I've played shuffle behind where the last dealer shuffles and holds the deck. When the current deal is done, the shuffler passes the deck through the just-finished dealer who cuts and passes the deck to the new dealer.

In cash games , we use one deck 5 or 6-handed but add a second deck full ring.

All work. There is not one way that is universally better.

 

[TexRex]

Old State, you still have a guy shuffling while we are playing. And unless you use one very fast dealer, it's more than 15 seconds. He or someone has to gather the cards, then shuffle them. While that is going on, we are playing the next hand. Cards are put in front of the guy who just dealt. The new guy starts dealing. Again, every 8 hands, with us, another hand occurs that just can't if using only 1 deck.

I'm not convinced that 3 riffles and a strip is enough, BTW. I'm not sure how others feel about that.

 

[ChaosRock]

I also never allow a dealer button unless there is a dedicated dealer. Otherwise the dealer button is pointless and only slows down the game when it’s not moved and people start to debate where it should be or deal to the wrong player.

Respectfully disagree. IMO, Dealer Buttons should always be in play. Quickly spotting where the Dealer is during play is key and sometimes looking for the stub is not the easiest thing to do depending on how the deal is done, whether the dealer is always holding the stub or not. Not having a Dealer Button makes things more confusing and it has no bearing on who should be dealing next. When using a dedicated dealer, the Button determines where the next deal should be but in self dealt game, the decks and shuffles should determine that and the Button should mark the Dealer for easy identification during play. I'm conditioned (and I think everyone should) to look for the Button during play. My opinion anyways.

 

[WedgeRock]

I agree with @Old State, @ChaosRock. Your opinion makes more sense if you just sit down at the table. But if you've played even a few hands and are paying attention, you should know where the deal is.

I know your players are used to the button and I'll adhere to your rules in your house. It's not a deal breaker.

Let's be honest, I'll play with paper cards and bottle caps on a kitchen counter...

 

[ChaosRock]

I agree with @Old State, @ChaosRock. Your opinion makes more sense if you just sit down at the table. But if you've played even a few hands and are paying attention, you should know where the deal is.

I know your players are used to the button and I'll adhere to your rules in your house. It's not a deal breaker.

Let's be honest, I'll play with paper cards and bottle caps on a kitchen counter...

Not every player is bound to having 100% attention on where the deal is all the time, specially in home games with lots of drinking, stories, laughs, etc. It is common sense the Dealer should ALWAYS be marked. There is absolutely no downside to having the dealer button whatsoever, only positives. Again, my opinion. It is to me a little puzzling the argument people cannot be bother by moving the dealer button but, on the other hand, are proficient enough to always know where the dealer is without the button.

 

[v1pe]

I've been considering trying this out. My poker group is all extremely recreational (even that is generous to say that about 1/2 of them). We do the SB shuffles the next deck, and if they happen to win that pot, then they scoop the cards and chips, forget to post SB, and get in the dealer's way - sometimes actually hitting and exposing flying cards with their hands raking in chips and cards...

I had never heard of the dealer gathers his/her own deck to shuffle, that seems the least disruptive for rotating deals. But I do like your concept of having a dedicated player dealer. Some of my players are more prone to make mistakes and we just all have to baby-sit and "spoon feed them queues" when it is their deal so that it will go smoothly......

Your method would solve that. But how do you handle it when you scoop a pot, do you just pile it in front of you, deal, and then stack as action starts?

Yeah if it's a small pot I'll just take the 10s or whatever to stack my chips before dealing, but if it's a big pot i just stack during the action.

It's also very nice to have someone dealing to help keep the action moving and do dealer things. Sucks most for the player who is dealing frankly, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

 

[Old State]

I fully realize thus is a two deck forum. My experience is opposite is almost all those examples and is shared my the majority of people I’ve played with for years.

And 15 seconds for a casino shuffle is not fast but a very moderate speed. Going fast is under 10. Practice and try it yourself. I ended up timing myself because of posts on this forum.

 

[WedgeRock]

It is to me a little puzzling the argument people cannot be bother by moving the dealer button but, on the other hand, are proficient enough to always know where the dealer is without the button.

Knowing the action is habit. Moving the button before shuffling is not habit yet... But I'll get there.

And agreed, other than confusion when the button doesn't get moved , there is no downside to using a button in a self-dealt game.

 

[AK Chip]

Yeah if it's a small pot I'll just take the 10s or whatever to stack my chips before dealing, but if it's a big pot i just stack during the action.

It's also very nice to have someone dealing to help keep the action moving and do dealer things. Sucks most for the player who is dealing frankly, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

When we draw seat assignment if you draw the ace your the dealer. New players will not be put in the dealers spot. If they draw the ace they jus redraw. If a regular draws the ace and they don't want to deal they can buy a redraw for $20 that goes to the house for food and overall expenses for hosting. But the ace goes back in the mix so they can draw it again. My buddy had to pay up $60, you can imagine the cussing during the seat draw.

The winner of the first tournament deals the second of the night.

 

[WedgeRock]

The winner of the first tournament deals the second of the night.

Love this idea.

 

[markleteenie]

Yeah if it's a small pot I'll just take the 10s or whatever to stack my chips before dealing, but if it's a big pot i just stack during the action.

It's also very nice to have someone dealing to help keep the action moving and do dealer things. Sucks most for the player who is dealing frankly, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

That makes sense. Plus if you're dealing, your won pot won't really get in the way as you deal.

I have been hesitant to be full time dealer player in my game due to increased responsibility, but I'm convinced after this thread to try it. The increased hand rate and overall efficiency seems worth a try.

 

[Lash]

Back shuffle (previous dealer) every time.
With designated dealer the button shuffles. If the dealer is playing the other players shuffle for them when they are button rotating clockwise

 

[Highli99]

When we draw seat assignment if you draw the ace your the dealer. New players will not be put in the dealers spot. If they draw the ace they jus redraw. If a regular draws the ace and they don't want to deal they can buy a redraw for $20 that goes to the house for food and overall expenses for hosting. But the ace goes back in the mix so they can draw it again. My buddy had to pay up $60, you can imagine the cussing during the seat draw.

The winner of the first tournament deals the second of the night.

I love that somebody hates dealing $60 worth.
That must have been hysterical.

 

[markleteenie]

I love that somebody hates dealing $60 worth.
That must have been hysterical.

Well after you've redrawn twice, it's not even about the money. It's the principle.

 

[AK Chip]

I love that somebody hates dealing $60 worth.
That must have been hysterical.

$50 buy in lol it was funny as hell!!

 

[Trihonda]

Two decks FTW imho. Always. Not even close. The 15 second shuffle time is a myth... it doesn’t factor that the cards have to be gathered and shipped to the next dealer (who’s hopefully paying attention), and they have to be gathered and squared by the new dealer, and then shuffled. I’ve play in several weekly games that use two decks, with several variations on shuffling... and I’ve played in regular games with one deck, and it’s not even close.

I’ve seen the time between conclusion of one hand and the start of dealing the next run around 1 min or more on average when using one deck. With a hand lasting on average of 2 minutes, that’s 50% more hands played if using two decks. Granted, are there hosts and games that go faster than 1 minute for shuffling time, sure it’s possible, but it hasn’t been my experience.

 

[Old State]

With one deck the dealer is the guy with the cards. No button needed. 15 seconds is relatively slow if you practice even a little bit. Not a myth at all

 

[Old State]

..l

 

[WedgeRock]

Well after you've redrawn twice, it's not even about the money. It's the principle.

You'll get it eventually.