Ultrasonic Chip Cleaning (5 Viewers)

[duckdrummer]

...and an oil application method that doesn't require wiping... like spray on of the proper quantity to soak in.

Spray on is easy: just go to the cosmetics dept of Target or where ever and get a small 4oz spray bottle. Fill it with oil of choice. One shot in the palm; grab a stack and roll the barrel. That takes care of the rolling edges very quickly. that one shot will take care of several barrels.

 

[ski_ex5]

Great info. Made a sticky.

Yay! My first ever sticky! Wait... that might sound bad taken out of context.

How does this one look?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161042406948

2X 60w transducers and 200w of heating in a 2.5 litre (.66 US Gallon) tank

Seems OK, albeit with a little less ultrasonic power than the one I have, and a LOT more heating power. BTW, I failed to mention something: Some online reviewers complain about the wimpy heating capacity of these units. For the purposes of chip cleaning, you don't really need much heating capacity, because you don't want to use high temperatures. Also, those ultrasonic transducers put a lot of energy into the tank and into the chips that ends up as heat.

Bottom line is that I wouldn't worry about the heating power. I DO recommend you check the internal dimensions of the tank, and ensure that you can find something to use as a "chip barrel cage" that FITS the ultrasonic unit you plan to buy. If you don't tumble the chips in a cage, the gunk gets loosened, but not removed, at least, not in a reasonable amount of time.

ski_ Any thoughts on the 6L capacity models?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220733528086?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
3 transducers, 180W. $183
View attachment 4156

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181434466620?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
3 transducers. 180W. $145.
View attachment 4157

Wow... I like that 3 for number of transducers, and I like that 180W number for power! Seems like a steal for the price. The relatively low price might make you wonder about quality, but frankly, none of the units anywhere near this price range (~$200) are what I'd call great quality. You just hope you get one that works, and send it back to Amazon if it doesn't (to be clear, I had no problem with my Hornady branded ultrasonic).

Thanks, Chris. I might even consider upgrading! Again, just make sure you check the internal dimensions and ensure you can get a "chip barrel cage" of some sort that fits! If you don't tumble the chips in a cage, the gunk gets loosened, but not removed, at least, not in a reasonable amount of time.

Ski,
First off thanks for this thread and the well written procedure. I managed to get a great deal on the Magnum cleaner on eBay... new $120 shipped.

First off, you're of course very welcome. Second off... Holy cow, what a deal! Great score for $120!

I followed Ski's procedure to a tee. Here are the before and afters for a dirty set of peach Par-A-Dice roulettes.
View attachment 4229
View attachment 4230
The chips have yet to be oiled. There is just a little bit of crud still stuck in the mold on a few chips. I can't really speak to fading or hotstamp removal. The hotstamps on all of my Par-A-Dice were pretty iffy.

I'm really looking forward to cleaning more chippies with this process. No more scrubbing.

I'm glad you got generally good results, but I'm really disappointed that you have ANY gunk still stuck in the mold. The only time that's been a problem for me is when I clean really filthy SCV/LCV chips (like Empress) that someone else had PREVIOUSLY CLEANED (poorly), or worse yet, PREVIOUSLY CLEANED AND OILED. I know you said you followed the procedure to a tee, but if you can think of anything you did differently, let me know (e.g. constant rotation of chips in barrel cage at about 1/2 rotation per second, plastic ties in chip barrel cage to promote turnover, distilled water, etc.). Also, for these chips, did you run the unit for about 2-1/2 minutes, or something shorter or longer?

The only thing missing from this process is a food dehydrator to bring the drying into the 21st Century.

: Drying isn't the big time consumer. IMHO, doing a good job oiling the chips is still a killer, though. I've tried to think of a much faster easier way of oiling large quantities of chips without missing all the "cracks and crevices" in the molds, and without causing damage by seeping under the inlays, but so far I've got nothing. I even thought about whipping out my automotive paint spray equipment(!), but that would require some fairly thin mineral oil that might get under the inlays and darken them. Plus, you'd still be left with the high effort of wiping off the excess. I don't know. At least using Johnson's Baby Oil GEL helps keep your hands soft... or so I'm told anyway by the girls in our poker group!

 

[Shaggy]

I'm glad you got generally good results, but I'm really disappointed that you have ANY gunk still stuck in the mold. The only time that's been a problem for me is when I clean really filthy SCV/LCV chips (like Empress) that someone else had PREVIOUSLY CLEANED (poorly), or worse yet, PREVIOUSLY CLEANED AND OILED. I know you said you followed the procedure to a tee, but if you can think of anything you did differently, let me know (e.g. constant rotation of chips in barrel cage at about 1/2 rotation per second, plastic ties in chip barrel cage to promote turnover, distilled water, etc.). Also, for these chips, did you run the unit for about 2-1/2 minutes, or something shorter or longer?

The only three areas where I may have deviated are:
1. occasionally a chip would get stuck under zip tie, so maybe it wasn't getting full agitation.
2. temperature may have been a little low. As I was completing a cycle, water cooled. I started next cycle at a temp around 107 and when it completed it may have been around 111.
3. Different brand of sodium metasilicate. My local hardware store only carried: Red Devil TSP/90

 

[ejbibler]

Holy cow! Those are impressive b4 & after pix!

 

[ski_ex5]

The only three areas where I may have deviated are:
1. occasionally a chip would get stuck under zip tie, so maybe it wasn't getting full agitation.

Yeah, I have that problem now and then. When I do, I reverse my rotation of the cage, which frees most stuck chips. Any stubborn stuck chips get poked free with my gloved finger. Before you start the next batch, mash the plastic ties flat against a hard surface to reduce the space between the tie and the green cage, and it will help a lot.

2. temperature may have been a little low. As I was completing a cycle, water cooled. I started next cycle at a temp around 107 and when it completed it may have been around 111.

In my experience, a few degrees low on the temperature doesn't seem to hurt. The temperatures we're using are pretty low, anyway.

3. Different brand of sodium metasilicate. My local hardware store only carried: Red Devil TSP/90

THAT is the problem!!!

Followed my instructions "to a tee", did you? Seriously, someone else recently asked me about Red Devil brand, and I was about to tell them "it should be fine" when I looked at the labels. Along with sodium metasilicate, Red Devil contains Oxi Clean. Relatively speaking, OXI CLEAN IS VERY POOR FOR USE IN THE ULTRASONIC.

My original posts at CT and PCF contained an older version of my procedure that used Oxi Clean. Bottom line is that with Oxi Clean, I'd get 25 RHC chips clean in 3 minutes. With Lundmark "TSP" sodium metasilicate, I get 40 RHC chips clean in 45-60 seconds.

(Don't forget that more chips in the ultrasonic unit means more time is needed to get them clean, all other things equal.)

There's a link in my original post to the Lundmark stuff on Amazon. People rate it poorly on Amazon because of Lundmark's misleading labeling - bold letters proclaiming "TSP", when in fact it's not trisodium phosphate. I don't like the false advertising, either, but I love the way it cleans chips in the ultrasonic unit.

Anyway I believe what's going on is that the thing that makes Oxi Clean great for those who like to manually scrub chips - the effervescent action - is the same thing that makes it bad for use in the ultrasonic unit. I think all the tiny little bubbles from the effervescent action inhibit the impact of the ultrasonic waves being transmitted by the water to the chips. When I did many multiple batches of dirty chips using Oxi Clean in the ultrasonic unit, I noticed that the cleaning power of the Oxi got SIGNIFICANTLY better once the bath water got really dirty, and the effervescent action was all gone. That's what made me look for something different to use in the ultrasonic.

So... Yay! I'm glad we found the difference. As impressive as your before and after photos are, I was seriously disappointed and surprised that your chips weren't 100% clean.

 

[Gear]

OXI CLEAN IS VERY POOR FOR USE IN THE ULTRASONIC.

OK, finally.

Ski, I've been reading your thread about ultrasonic cleaning since they started, both here and at CT, and I could never figure out how it made any sense that you were getting good results with ultrasonic cleaning using OxiClean. The entire point of OxiClean is to generate a huge amount of small bubbles, which is exactly contrary to what works well with ultrasonic cleaning. The transducers are supposed to be cavitating the water, which means creating very small, very hot, and very short-lived bubbles. The effectiveness is dramatically reduced when you have bubbles in the water already, because the pressure that should have nowhere else to go than to cavitate, instead can just compress an exisiting bubble.

In other words OxiClean basically turns an ultrasonic cleaner into a fancy heater. The Oxi can do a pretty good job of cleaning chips on its own, and heating / agitation will improve that. But ultrasonic action plus zillions of existing bubbles just cancel each other out.

FWIW I have been using that "TSP" brand sodium metasilicate stuff (which I didn't realize wasn't actually trisodium phosphate until you pointed it out - thanks!) in an ultrasonic cleaner and getting pretty decent results.

 

[Shaggy]

THAT is the problem!!!

Followed my instructions "to a tee", did you?

... Alright... I'll have to find the Lundmark stuff. Though to be fair, the red devil stuff only lists sodium metiscilate. No carbonate... Etc. the Amazon description mentions Oxi, but the package does not.

 

[ski_ex5]

Gear - Yeah... I obviously wasn't thinking clearly - or at all!

Shaggy - Was the Red Devil fizzy when you first put it in the water (like Oxi)?

 

[Shaggy]

Shaggy - Was the Red Devil fizzy when you first put it in the water (like Oxi)?

Nope... nothing like Oxi. No fizz, no sound. It did sud up with use however. That seemed to be consistent with your findings.

 

[Mental Nomad]

If you pre-soak your chips in a bucket or sink full of hot water, they'll warm up. The internal heat will help loosen the grip of the gunk on the chip side and make make it easier for ultrasonic cavitation to blow it of. In addition, since you're using pre-heated chips, they won't cool down the water in your ultrasonic, so you don't need as powerful a heating unit there.

If your oven does low temperatures - like 150 F - you can also put your chips in there to warm up, but I'm not sure about any labels that use adhesive and what temperatures get risky. Most ovens don't go much below 200 F, which would be too hot to handle (literally.)

 

[H|Q]

While you guys are talking about this...

Do not introduce anything to superheated distilled water. Distilled water will not burn and if anything is introduced to it, you'll have a violent instant boiling that would like an explosion.

 

[Gear]

While you guys are talking about this...

Do not introduce anything to superheated distilled water. Distilled water will not burn and if anything is introduced to it, you'll have a violent instant boiling that would like an explosion.

Good advice, but if you've got superheated distilled water in any kind of chip-cleaning context, you're doing it massively wrong

BTW I don't think any kind of water will burn, distilled or not

 

[H|Q]

Good advice, but if you've got superheated distilled water in any kind of chip-cleaning context, you're doing it massively wrong

BTW I don't think any kind of water will burn, distilled or not

This thread seems to be experiential in its nature. When people try things, they adjust things like temperature. Just be careful if you get distilled water over 100 degrees. IT WILL BURN THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.

 

[Gear]

100 degrees C, yes. 100 degrees F, not a chance.

It's pretty much not possible to boil water with that size of ultrasonic cleaner, and you wouldn't want it that hot anyway since it would melt the chips.

 

[BGinGA]

100 degrees C, yes. 100 degrees F, not a chance.

It's pretty much not possible to boil water with that size of ultrasonic cleaner, and you wouldn't want it that hot anyway since it would melt the chips.

well, that's one way to eliminate that pesky gunk embedded in tiny hat and cane crevices.....

 

[H|Q]

100 degrees C, yes. 100 degrees F, not a chance.

It's pretty much not possible to boil water with that size of ultrasonic cleaner, and you wouldn't want it that hot anyway since it would melt the chips.

Brain fell out. Yes F vs C. Chemistry was not my best subject.

 

[Gear]

Yes F vs C. Chemistry was not my best subject.

F vs C, were those your grades?

Just teasin'. I know you only had others' safety in mind, which is commendable.

 

[ski_ex5]

F vs C, were those your grades?

WOW! Now THAT was cold! I'd say about 0˚C.

 

[texasrambler]

Too many positive results for not going that path...

Bought also a sonic cleaner (EMAG 20H). Now just need to find an official justification...

Interesting! where do you find this within EU ( or EFTA )? Amazon?

 

[Shaggy]

I'm considering buying these chips purely to experiment on for cleaning purposes... Is that sacrilege?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271691885746

200x Kenmore Lanes ASM's that are filthy...

 

[courage]

Do it. You'll save me some time and $ lol [emoji1]

 

[ChaosRock]

Hey Shaggy!! The Ultrasonic thing works like a charm!! I've been using mine for the past two years and although I don't quite get Ski's fabulous results, it's pretty close...

Now in regards to the ASM Kenmore, it's quite the opposite story... I also bought 200 of those a year ago+ and they were absolutely filthy, more than the ultra dirty PCAs or the like... They were also ALL spinners... I believe the seller was the same but I'm not sure... I cleaned them and they became very 'chalky', lost their 'thing'... I wouldn't use the Ultrasonic on ASMs personally... I then baked them slightly and they did get flat.. Because if their chalkiness, they ended up going to the trash can unfortunately... Again, those ASM won't be a good test for the cleaning me thinks 8)

Not sure if the seller is the same, and my apologies if it's not, but I'd just watch out for the condition of those chips...

I'm considering buying these chips purely to experiment on for cleaning purposes... Is that sacrilege?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271691885746

200x Kenmore Lanes ASM's that are filthy...

 

[Shaggy]

Thanks for the response Chaos. I have actually successfully cleaned about 1000 paulsons using the ultrasonic so far. Now I have about 100 Binion horseshoe mold ASMs that need cleaning. The testing I mention about is to attempt to find a cleaning solution that won't ruin the ASMs. I fully expect to ruin many of those Kenmores.

 

[ChaosRock]

Should have re-read the thread before posting... Couldn't remember if u had already cleaned Paulsons with the Ultrasonic, sorry...

Those Kenmore will be perfect for your experiment then! Different time, amount of TSP, temperature might get u a much better result than I did with those ASMs...

Good luck and just let us know how it went!

Thanks for the response Chaos. I have actually successfully cleaned about 1000 paulsons using the ultrasonic so far. Now I have about 100 Binion horseshoe mold ASMs that need cleaning. The testing I mention about is to attempt to find a cleaning solution that won't ruin the ASMs. I fully expect to ruin many of those Kenmores.

 

[courage]

Kenmore testing is prolly valuable but I'd be leary of putting those Binion's horseshoe mold at risk!

 

[Shaggy]

Kenmore testing is prolly valuable but I'd be leary of putting those Binion's horseshoe mold at risk!

I hear you on that one... I would have to be really confident in the process before cleaning the Binions.

 

[Gear]

Do not, repeat, DO NOT use TSP on ASM chips. It will dissolve them, at least partially.

That is definitely true for real trisodium phosphate. I'm not sure about sodium metasilicate, but I wouldn't be surprised by similar results.

 

[Shaggy]

Higher up in the thread Ski shared a process using Dawn dish detergent and the ultrasonic. The results were not to his satisfaction. I will begin with his process and work from there.

 

[ski_ex5]

The Ultrasonic thing works like a charm!! I've been using mine for the past two years and although I don't quite get Ski's fabulous results, it's pretty close...

Hey, Paulo, I'm disappointed you're still not quite getting the same results.

I'm pretty sure the process can still be improved. That said, the specifics of the *current* process are the result of a LOT of testing, tweaking, and failed experiments. So, the moral of the story is that the details and materials in each step of the process are important to achieving the same results. Not that it's rocket science, but I'd recommend you re-read each step carefully to see if you're doing anything differently. To name a few examples, here are some "little" things in the current process that made a BIG difference in cleaning quality/speed when I first tried them:

• Adding the four plastic ties to the chip barrel cage for better chip turnover. Good rotation of the chips is key to REMOVING the gunk and dirt, i.e. not just loosening it.
• Using distilled water, which is especially beneficial if the tap water in your area is hard. If you happen to have a high quality water softener in your home, or if you live in Baton Rouge, LA (softest city water I've ever found), I'd give that a try, otherwise, don't think twice about getting distilled water. It's cheap.
• Rotating the chips in the "chip barrel cage" for the entire duration of the ultrasonic bath at a relatively constant 1/2 rotation per second. Again, good rotation is key, and I tried a LOT of different combinations of speed, cycles of "rotating and waiting, rotating and waiting", etc., but the constant 1/2 rotation per second seems to work far better than anything else I tried.
• Using the "Lundmark TSP" brand cleaner. The bold "TSP" label is highly misleading advertising at best, as it's NOT trisodium phosphate at all; it's sodium metasilicate. However, I love the way the sodium metasilicate cleans chips. Also very important is the fact that the Lundmark does NOT contain Oxi Clean or similar "bubbly" effervescent cleaners that sharply inhibit ultrasonic cleaning.

Of course, there are "bigger" things that made a big difference, too, like getting a higher powered dual transducer ultrasonic unit rather than the little low powered single transducer unit marketed as a jewelry cleaner!

I'm also going to repeat a disclaimer: If you are cleaning chips that were once very filthy (like Empress), but those chips were previously cleaned (and possibly oiled) by someone else, and someone else didn't get them completely clean, don't expect to get great results. Something about the detergents, process, and/or oiling that some people use makes getting the remaining gunk out of SCV/LCV rings and other mold crevices extremely difficult. In some cases, I've resorted to using a dental pick or back edge of an X-Acto knife to remove the gunk, rather than leave the chips in very long warm detergent baths that cause significant fading. In most of these cases, I find that the gunk in the rings and canes has been hardened by the previous cleaning process, and the gunk sometimes even pops out in one piece!

Anyway, let me know if you find something that helps you get the same results. Also, if you have any ideas on how to improve the process, please let us know!

Higher up in the thread Ski shared a process using Dawn dish detergent and the ultrasonic. The results were not to his satisfaction. I will begin with his process and work from there.

I *think* I shared the Dawn test process and results in a PM! I don't think I had a chance to share the photos with you, though, did I?

That would be great if you get the Kenmore Lanes ASMs for testing. If you ever get the opportunity, lighter colored chips (especially white!) are even better for testing!

Some suggestions for ASM testing:

• If it were me, I wouldn't quite give up on Dawn in the ultrasonic, but the chips HAVE to be rotated if you don't want them spending all day in the ultrasonic. More time = more fading, even with Dawn. Plus, I wouldn't even want my "Play-Doh soft and soluble" ASM chips soaking in plain warm water for a long time! I think you *have* to rotate.
• If you rotate the chips in Dawn (as I did in the last three minutes of test cleaning the white Lucky Derby hundos), you end up with a foamy mess all over the place. Besides being a mess, the foamy water going down the outer sides of the ultrasonic unit could damage it. Most importantly, there's the safety risk of electric shock (the Hornady ultrasonic has the electrical plug on the back side of the unit)! You really need an anti-foaming agent.
• Take a look at pool and spa products to see if you can find an anti-foaming agent that would work well in the Dawn solution.
• Right after every test, rub the face of one of the ASM chips firmly against a clean white rag or paper towel to see if the color comes off, i.e. if the chip face is being dissolved. (Hey, that's one good thing about the darker blue color of the Kenmore Lanes chips for testing!) I've found ASM chips to be VERY soluble, and I wouldn't even put nice horseshoe Binions chips in Dawn without testing first!

Let me know if I can help. Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

 

[ChaosRock]

Hey, Paulo, I'm disappointed you're still not quite getting the same results.

Hey Ski!! I'm getting GREAT results! Just not "Ski" results LOL!! So instead of feeling disappointed you should feel good about how much you helped all of us with your method and write ups

• Adding the four plastic ties to the chip barrel cage for better chip turnover.
• Using distilled water
• Rotating the chips in the "chip barrel cage" for the entire duration of the ultrasonic bath at a relatively constant 1/2 rotation per second.
• Using the "Lundmark TSP" brand cleaner.

Of course, there are "bigger" things that made a big difference, too, like getting a higher powered dual transducer ultrasonic unit rather than the little low powered single transducer unit marketed as a jewelry cleaner!

Check on all the above Ski, with the difference that I am using real TSP... That might be the source of the slight different results... I'll try to find the Lundmark TSP brand as chemically it's a different animal completely... I have the same unit as you do btw...

If you are cleaning chips that were once very filthy (like Empress), but those chips were previously cleaned (and possibly oiled) by someone else, and someone else didn't get them completely clean, don't expect to get great results.

I have just experienced exactly that... I got an additional 200 Casablancas red/yellow/lavender for a relabel job (not from Keller) and they were "dirty clean"... It took me a while to get them all cleaned up... More time in the machine...

I find that overall the results are fantastic Ski... I have a little bit of a problem with bright white chips (like Stardust $1s for example, and they are not that dirty at all), I have to use a bit of magic eraser on them to make them squeakily clean... The other issue I am facing that you have not experienced (TSP again maybe?) is that after I clean 6 barrels (three cycles) I feel the cleaning power diminishes from there and I usually replace the water/TSP then for faster results...

All in all Ski, I cleaned 1,000s of SCV, LCV, RHC, Suits mold, hot stamping, ceramics, BCCs without a glitch... I will NEVER clean chips any other way (unless it's ASM of course)...

So thanks for everything once again!