Yup they have been quite busy it seems like lately!
Tx room raided (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Frogzilla
- Start date
Expected. I love how a city can give a certificate of occupancy and have a mayor celebrate the opening, only to have the county bust it 8 months in, when their largest event and largest civil asset forfeiture opportunity is taking place.
Also from the interview from a dealer, the first thing law enforcement did after it was obviously safe, was walk to the back and turn off all recording devices - cameras and mics. Why?
Also from the interview from a dealer, the first thing law enforcement did after it was obviously safe, was walk to the back and turn off all recording devices - cameras and mics. Why?
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
There has always been the lurking risk that the state / city / county would attempt to enforce the laws against gambling. And if booze is in anyway involved, there is the Texas Acholic Beverage Commision <TABC> who can step in if an agent merely believes something "immoral" is going on.
Look at this as a form of morality shall game. The legislature drafts ambiguous statutes about a number of issues dealing with morality - booze, sex and gambling are all subjects for this strategy. Nobody will say for sure, specifically, what is legal and what is not legal. It only takes one arm of law enforcement to levy charges. And to be clear, there are a lot of different organizations in Texas with police powers.
So what? The mayor celebrates the opening of a new business. The city issues occupancy paperwork. Local governmental run utilities hook the card room up. Yet, the business is a criminal enterprise in the eyes of the sheriff. Is this card room really any different from a local drug dealer? Some of us would see quite a difference, but in the eyes of the law there might not be much distinction.
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Or is it? Do you have to understand something is illegal for you to have committed a crime? Seems rather unfair for a guy/gal to be charged and found guilty of doing something they thought was lawful. But this is Texas, in many cases, you don't get to plead ignorance of the law as a defense.
Let's stipulate that I don't agree with the way law enforcement handles gambling in Texas. The harshest letter of the law is stunning. The Texas AG has issued a written opinion that merely issuing a "you are the winner!" certificate makes a poker tournament criminal. Different opinion, taking up a collection from the group to buy a pizza in an otherwise private poker game makes the card game criminal. TABC can and has walked into a local bar poker game and shut down the business as an immoral gambling hall. Yet five miles away, on the other side of a precinct line the same bar league poker event has no issues.
The Justice of the Peace is an elected official in Texas. Each precinct has its JP. I think of this position as the shitty little jobs officer - at least in smaller population areas the JP does far more than run their court. The JP position has no educational requirements - not a law degree nor license. No educational requirements at all. The voters decide every four years.
One might note that gambling is offensive to some people of faith. Well not the church bingo game. But otherwise, gambling is contrary to scripture. It shouldn't be hard to imagine that a JP in an area with many faith-based voters could find it preferable to strictly enforce the Texas statutes vs organized criminal activity. Not just against the organizers of the gambling den, but also against the customers. We don't let the drug buying public off the hook, do we? Why should the card players be treated any better? The JP can be in a hard position, where his voters expect harsher treatment of criminals than he/she might personally believe is proper.
<What?! You think calling the players in a Texas card room criminals like drug buyers is a bit harsh? Well, let me assure you plenty of people in Texas would disagree. Some of them have a very low threshold for what makes someone a low life criminal.>
I wish everyone involved with these incidents the best of luck. It doesn't seem very fair to me, but the State of Texas is VERY clear that there is no promise of fairness in legal proceedings, merely that the statutes of the state be followed. I hope each of you have a good relationship with the district attorney, the sheriff and the Justice of the Peace. That is as important as anything else in these sorts of matters.
Me? I make contributions to everyone's campaigns. Kind of like a "$100 club bumper sticker" -=- DrStrange
Look at this as a form of morality shall game. The legislature drafts ambiguous statutes about a number of issues dealing with morality - booze, sex and gambling are all subjects for this strategy. Nobody will say for sure, specifically, what is legal and what is not legal. It only takes one arm of law enforcement to levy charges. And to be clear, there are a lot of different organizations in Texas with police powers.
So what? The mayor celebrates the opening of a new business. The city issues occupancy paperwork. Local governmental run utilities hook the card room up. Yet, the business is a criminal enterprise in the eyes of the sheriff. Is this card room really any different from a local drug dealer? Some of us would see quite a difference, but in the eyes of the law there might not be much distinction.
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Or is it? Do you have to understand something is illegal for you to have committed a crime? Seems rather unfair for a guy/gal to be charged and found guilty of doing something they thought was lawful. But this is Texas, in many cases, you don't get to plead ignorance of the law as a defense.
Let's stipulate that I don't agree with the way law enforcement handles gambling in Texas. The harshest letter of the law is stunning. The Texas AG has issued a written opinion that merely issuing a "you are the winner!" certificate makes a poker tournament criminal. Different opinion, taking up a collection from the group to buy a pizza in an otherwise private poker game makes the card game criminal. TABC can and has walked into a local bar poker game and shut down the business as an immoral gambling hall. Yet five miles away, on the other side of a precinct line the same bar league poker event has no issues.
The Justice of the Peace is an elected official in Texas. Each precinct has its JP. I think of this position as the shitty little jobs officer - at least in smaller population areas the JP does far more than run their court. The JP position has no educational requirements - not a law degree nor license. No educational requirements at all. The voters decide every four years.
One might note that gambling is offensive to some people of faith. Well not the church bingo game. But otherwise, gambling is contrary to scripture. It shouldn't be hard to imagine that a JP in an area with many faith-based voters could find it preferable to strictly enforce the Texas statutes vs organized criminal activity. Not just against the organizers of the gambling den, but also against the customers. We don't let the drug buying public off the hook, do we? Why should the card players be treated any better? The JP can be in a hard position, where his voters expect harsher treatment of criminals than he/she might personally believe is proper.
<What?! You think calling the players in a Texas card room criminals like drug buyers is a bit harsh? Well, let me assure you plenty of people in Texas would disagree. Some of them have a very low threshold for what makes someone a low life criminal.>
I wish everyone involved with these incidents the best of luck. It doesn't seem very fair to me, but the State of Texas is VERY clear that there is no promise of fairness in legal proceedings, merely that the statutes of the state be followed. I hope each of you have a good relationship with the district attorney, the sheriff and the Justice of the Peace. That is as important as anything else in these sorts of matters.
Me? I make contributions to everyone's campaigns. Kind of like a "$100 club bumper sticker" -=- DrStrange
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All that from a state that ranks near the bottom in terms of personal freedoms and at the top in terms of incarcerated citizens per capita?
Colour me shocked.
HaRDHouSeiNC
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Id check again on the state of freedoms in Texas.
Yah, and its a law and order state as well, I guess sort of, ignore the border jumpers who get a free ticket in.
I'll be the first to admit if I'm misinformed.
HaRDHouSeiNC
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@Lil Tuna
I guess youre living in Wretched Whitmer nanny state I had no idea????
If personal freedoms are low in TX IDK where we go now? Maybe ComieFornia?
I saw advs pumped in FL by Grewsome that that is the freest state around?
bergs
Royal Flush
Texas straight up fucking sucks.
This is true.
ekricket
Royal Flush
They are good neighbors. Have plenty of cash to come spend on skiing, golfing, food and the like, then they go home. They got good roads to the airports and cheaper gas to get there.
But your aim is a little off. It’s big cities that suck. Doesn’t matter where or what state, the people in them are just miserable. It’s a miserable life with a few made up perks and it’s filled with people that couldn’t care less if their neighbors house burned down, whoever they are. They won’t call the FD but they film it while it burns so you can watch it later on YouTube
Texas cities suck
Hey don't you talk about Texas this way!!
You also forgot to mention how high we rank on per capita crime rates, environmental quality, protections against discrimination, voting rights, and public health.
We were ranked the 48th best state to live and at least we are higher than Arizona and Louisiana!
bergs
Royal Flush
Arizona >>> Texas if you can handle the heat in summer.
Not according to the rankings, but I'm educated in Texas and we aren't very high on the list for our reading abilities, so take it for what it's worth.
In 2021, some 62 companies relocated their HQs to Texas from 17 states and three countries, according to the just-released Relo Tracker Report.
Top states people are moving to:
Texas. Part of the influx is due to the state’s conservative political environment, which is inviting to many people from nearby liberal states. Low taxes, a robust economy, a low cost of living and excellent weather round out the list of why Texas is a popular destination.
Top states people are moving to:
Texas. Part of the influx is due to the state’s conservative political environment, which is inviting to many people from nearby liberal states. Low taxes, a robust economy, a low cost of living and excellent weather round out the list of why Texas is a popular destination.
chicubs1988
Flush
1. Cops can "detain" you based on a reasonable suspicion and you have no legal justification against answering basic identifying questions. For example, cops at a suspected crime scene can ask you for identification and a few basic questions.
2. Further questioning implicates your 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. Your recourse if the police question you without advising you of your rights is that they can't use those statements (or evidence derived from those statements) against you in criminal proceedings.
3. The cops likely asked those questions in this case because they wanted info they could use against the cardroom. They likely never intended on using them against the players. Card room ownership/staff don't have the legal ability to exclude someone else's statements.
4. This is a giant clusterfuck and an abject failure to provide basic governance. These card rooms started popping up back in ~2015, yet the State of Texas has failed to offer any clarity. As a result, you have an unclear patchwork of local laws and ordinances that don't offer an adequate picture of what is/isn't legal.
5. Compounding #4 above in this case is the fact that you have a local government giving its blessing and legal recognition to the operation of this cardroom, only to have the County take a completely different stance. In the absence of clear State level decision making, its entirely reasonable for law-abiding citizens to believe that they are within the bounds of the law to play at this card room when the local mayor hosts a public ribbon cutting.
6. The Sheriff's Dept. made this way more dangerous than it needed to be. They could have posted a public notice to the owners warning them to shut down. They could have posted this for the wider public as well so that players would know that the card room was operating illegally and they should play elsewhere. Instead, law enforcement waited until the middle of a tournament to "go in hot" which resulted in putting a lot of people at risk, including their own deputies, because of the number of people involved. They could have executed the raid first thing in the morning, at the end of the day, or they could have executed arrest warrants at the residences of the card room owners. I'm a federal prosecutor and there is no way we would green light the execution of a search warrant like this by one of our agencies given that it is for non-violent criminal conduct.
7. Apparently, players were unaware that the card room was mishandling rebuys, Again, as a federal prosecutor I would say that the players here are victims, not perps.
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CrazyEddie
Full House
They can ask all they want. Whether they have any recourse to you refusing to provide identification or answer basic questions - or anything at all - is dependent on the jurisdiction.
chicubs1988
Flush
Generally, they can detain you in order to identify you, check for warrants, etc….So you can refuse to hand over ID or answer basic questions, but the likely result is they take to the police station and hold you until they do identify you. You have rights, but you don’t have the unfettered right to not answer anything and just walk/drive away.
At least California has clear law on what is or isn't a legal poker room.
I can walk into a poker room there knowing that I can play cards without getting arrested, cited, or having my cash seized.
HaRDHouSeiNC
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Then get it taxed 45% while the power goes out with rolling blackouts and the forests burn due to mismanagement while tripping over feces and needles in the street. I’m assuming not a Compton casino, that’s a gamble itself if you make it out of your car without getting stabbed.
I believe there is a reason there are no Uhauls in Cali right now.
Nope I don’t live in a Clorox themed city like New Orleans
What are you suggesting? I mean I’m mostly an MSNBC guy myself
Seriously I listen to 95% podcasts
You nailed it exactly
It’s those Clorox toilet cleaner themed and run cities that make it Trashy
bergs
Royal Flush
Tell me you’re a hard core conservative without telling me you’re a hard core conservative.
HaRDHouSeiNC
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That’s funny. The people I talk to tell me that although Texas sucks in a lot of ways, the cities aren’t bad.
I bet we talk to different people.
This is why we can't have nice things. 
Quoting @DrStrange ..
"So what? The mayor celebrates the opening of a new business. The city issues occupancy paperwork. Local governmental run utilities hook the card room up. Yet, the business is a criminal enterprise in the eyes of the sheriff. Is this card room really any different from a local drug dealer?"
I'd argue it's radically different than a drug dealer because a drug dealer wouldn't be granted a CO or have the mayor welcome them to town.
"So what? The mayor celebrates the opening of a new business. The city issues occupancy paperwork. Local governmental run utilities hook the card room up. Yet, the business is a criminal enterprise in the eyes of the sheriff. Is this card room really any different from a local drug dealer?"
I'd argue it's radically different than a drug dealer because a drug dealer wouldn't be granted a CO or have the mayor welcome them to town.
OP
OP
Well @DrStrange, I have decided to relinquish my fantasies of being a lawyer, and mopping the floor with the DA. And needling him afterward reminding him I’m an amateur.
Your advice won out, so I have instead hired a professional defense attorney. Thanks for the words of wisdom
Your advice won out, so I have instead hired a professional defense attorney. Thanks for the words of wisdom
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
Good! I had been wondering how your case played out for you. Be sure to keep us apprised.
I have a twenty year long relationship with the JP in my precinct - he even played in my home games once in a while - and even so I wasn't so sure how this sort of charge would play out in his court with me as the defendant.
Best of luck -=- DrStrange
I have a twenty year long relationship with the JP in my precinct - he even played in my home games once in a while - and even so I wasn't so sure how this sort of charge would play out in his court with me as the defendant.
Best of luck -=- DrStrange
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
@Frogzilla It has been three months since the raid. How has your case gone? Is it resolved?
I am hoping your lawyer was able to talk the prosecutor into dropping the case -=- DrStrange
I am hoping your lawyer was able to talk the prosecutor into dropping the case -=- DrStrange
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Word on the street is the Judge ordered them to do Double Jeopardy Bomb Pots to settle this matter
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