Tourney Tourney Payout Structure For 20% Of Field (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

We've recently seen the WSOP move to a format that makes minimum payouts at least 2x the buyin. I've noticed over the years that a lot of tournaments are being chopped up at the final tables, this is players telling rooms they aren't comfortable with the pay jumps. Oftentimes 1st would be getting more than 2nd and 3rd combined.

I've been working on a business plan for a poker room and I'm a firm believer that flattening payouts and paying a larger percentage of the field is an overall positive. The current setup of unlimited re-entries for 4 hours, multi-day and multi-bag forward events just tips the scale further in favor of professional players with deep pockets who already have a skill edge over the recs.

It's become that much harder for recreational players to realize their dream of winning a tournament. They may get lucky and bust Phil Ivey once, but if he has unlimited lives you aren't going to get him five times, he'll get your ass.

Currently the format for tournaments is funneling all the money into the pro's pockets, which gets sucked out of the poker economy for life expenses and larger purchases.

A recreational player is just happy to cash in a tournament, they get that dopamine hit from "making the money" and feel accomplished. Now they have cash in their pocket, maybe they turn around and play a cash game, maybe they play another tournament. Whatever the case, the more evenly distributed the money is, the more likely it is to recirculate within your poker economy, which is a net positive.

So toying around with trying to find a way to pay 20% of the field and make it decent, here's what I came up with. Assume 100 players in this field with $100 of the buy-in going to the prize pool

1st - $2000
2nd - $1500
3rd - $1000
4th - $750
5th - $600
6th - $450
7th - $400
8th - $350
9th - $300
10th - $275
11th - 15th: $250
16th - 20th: $225

My approach would be to offer more freezeouts, single re-entry and my Return of the Drawing Dead concept (one entry, three lives. If you bust before end of reg you can use a token to get back in. After reg ends any unused tokens are converted into chips that are added to your stack, now everyone is on an equal footing, rather than Joe Q Public having the ability to buy-in to an event 1-2 times while Pro Joe can fire 5+ shells at it.

Plus, gone would be the days of cashing in a tournament but showing a loss because of how many shells you fired.

 

[BGinGA]

I like your idea of the RooDD, although it's only two lives (not three). The token is worth a full-size starting stack (regardless when used)?

Your payout structure is pretty good, although I prefer the following -- still pretty flat, but it makes each pay jump worth more than the previous one once you get to the final table and retains the 'pretty' $2k top prize:

1 2000
2 1500
3 1050
4 800
5 650
6 525
7 425
8 350
9 300
10 275
11-15 225
16-20 200

 

[Anthony Martino]

I like your idea of the RooDD, although it's only two lives (not three). The token is worth a full-size starting stack (regardless when used)?

Your payout structure is pretty good, although I prefer the following -- still pretty flat, but it makes each pay jump worth more than the previous one once you get to the final table and retains the 'pretty' $2k top prize:

1 2000
2 1500
3 1050
4 800
5 650
6 525
7 425
8 350
9 300
10 275
11-15 225
16-20 200

My concept for the RotDD was that you get three lives (your initial starting stack, then two tokens to get back in if you bust prior to registration). I was considering that you'd have them increase in value a slight bit if they are unused (i.e. 20K if used prior to registration, or 25K in chips each if converting after reg ends)

This was just a concept idea that I put together when I was still working for PH-Austin

 

[doublebooyah85]

I do like how wsop min chases are double the buy in now and if your building a poker room I would agree 20% payout or maybe 17.5%

I also prefer single re entries.

The drawing dead ideas fun but as you’re trying to introduce and grow things, I wouldn’t be including new ideas. People have to do minimal education and research on I it and it still may confuse some…I think 20% payout and single re entries would do the trick.

 

[drdr]

Man, would love having a game with 20% paid and reduced rebuys. Best I can find near me a while back was 5% paid. I agree on catering to the recs. Treat them well enough with structures that favour them and I think you'll have a player base made or regular-recs.

 

[HiveKueen]

I'm just seeing this today (for who knows what reason).
I analyzed your proposed payout breakdown.

Here are the percentage decreases from payout to payout.

2000
1500 25.00%
1000 33.33%
750 25.00%
600 20.00%
450 25.00%
400 11.11%
350 12.50%
300 14.29%
275 8.33%
250 9.09%


These decreases are arbitrary as well as lumpy - why does third prize decrease by 33% from second when second only decreased from first by 25%. In your shoes, I would be inclined to have the decrease be constant from place to place rounded to the nearest whole dollar. I put a spreadsheet in the Resources section that does this, but not for 100 entries. It helps understand the wisdom of the idea of consistency though.

Are you still working on starting a card room that implements your vision of flatter payouts?

 

[Anthony Martino]

I'm just seeing this today (for who knows what reason).
I analyzed your proposed payout breakdown.

Here are the percentage decreases from payout to payout.

2000
1500 25.00%
1000 33.33%
750 25.00%
600 20.00%
450 25.00%
400 11.11%
350 12.50%
300 14.29%
275 8.33%
250 9.09%


These decreases are arbitrary as well as lumpy - why does third prize decrease by 33% from second when second only decreased from first by 25%. In your shoes, I would be inclined to have the decrease be constant from place to place rounded to the nearest whole dollar. I put a spreadsheet in the Resources section that does this, but not for 100 entries. It helps understand the wisdom of the idea of consistency though.

Are you still working on starting a card room that implements your vision of flatter payouts?

Thanks for the analysis, good points all around.

At the moment I'm just focused on growing my poker vlog on youtube, been getting some companies that have paid for me to produce content on their sites so that's been cool. But have taken a step back from actively working on opening a room for the time being. If the right opportunity presented itself I'd be on it, but for the time being I haven't found that.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

If you look at any EPT tournaments where the top prize isn't exactly €/£/$1,000,000, they have the same percentage jumps between tournaments. First wins 60% more than second, second wins 40% more than third, 3-9 are 30% pay jumps, etc. If you just made the jumps a bit closer you could probably figure out a system which pays out at least 2x for a min. cash. I would work on it in Excel if you knew what size tables you would run, just let me know if you decide to go through with trying to open up a club.

 

[Anthony Martino]

If you look at any EPT tournaments where the top prize isn't exactly €/£/$1,000,000, they have the same percentage jumps between tournaments. First wins 60% more than second, second wins 40% more than third, 3-9 are 30% pay jumps, etc. If you just made the jumps a bit closer you could probably figure out a system which pays out at least 2x for a min. cash. I would work on it in Excel if you knew what size tables you would run, just let me know if you decide to go through with trying to open up a club.

Unfortunately I'd need a lot more capital than I have access to, to open the club I'd like to (18+ tables). So for the time being the dream is on hold.