Tourney Tournament Stud (1 Viewer)

[DeeVee8]

I've played Stud, but never in a tourney before. Thinking of planning a HOSS (Hold'em, PLO, Stud and 6+) tournament. Each round, a wheel is spun to select the game for that level. I need some help on how Stud betting works. The bring in, blinds, is it usually Limit, PL or NL, etc.

Also, max players per table for Omaha and Stud? I've seen 8 max on both. Omaha is fine, but my simple math tells me if everyone plays to the last street (unlikely), you won't have enough cards for Stud.

I've tried to find videos, but they were all heads up at the finals of tournaments. No help.

 

[Chauncy]

Most stud tournaments are played 8 handed. As a dealer I've never seen everyone stay till the last street even with really loose players.
In general your ante is about 1/4 of the first bet limit. The bring-in is typically the same. for example
50 ante, 50 low card bring-in, 200 to complete, limits 200-400. Stud is almost always a limit game.

 

[ruskba]

You can also deal 7th street as a community card in the rare event there aren’t enough cards remaining.

Bring in is by the lowest up-card (in the event of a tie like two people with 3’s, the first dealt is the bring in), and subsequent betting rounds start with the highest hand showing.

You can find WSOP structures for mixed games that should show how to jump back and forth between limit/NL/PL with the right blinds and limits.

 

[Coyote]

I wonder (honestly asking) if 6-card stud (or 6 plus 1 community dealt with the last face down card), at any rate in 4 betting rounds, could be played PL, with just a dealer's ante and no bring-in or other forced bet.

 

[Chauncy]

@Coyote i'm sure you could but it wouldn't be stud..
I don't think you would get any action, especially in a tournament structure.

 

[Coyote]

Understood.
In cash, with a forced bring-in (plus dealer ante), would it function as 4-round PL?

 

[DeeVee8]

Thanks, I think I see how this works. Check my math...

If the next level is Stud, and the blinds are 100-200, the 100 is the bring in (small blind) and 200 is the big blind, and is also the big bet until the turn, then its 400?

 

[BGinGA]

Thanks, I think I see how this works. Check my math...

If the next level is Stud, and the blinds are 100-200, the 100 is the bring in (small blind) and 200 is the big blind, and is also the big bet until the turn, then its 400?

^That works. And use a T200 table ante on the button -- with no blinds, you need seed money in the pot.

 

[DeeVee8]

^That works. And use a T200 table ante on the button -- with no blinds, you need seed money in the pot.

I was just going to have the SB/BB post as normal. BB would be the bring in. Is that not going to work?

 

[Chauncy]

often tournaments are set up with the flop game/stud games laid out for that level
for example
Flop games 300/500 blinds If you were playing a Limit game the limits for a 300/500 would be 500/1000
Stud Games 100 ante Bring in 200 Complete 500 betting limits 500/1000

 

[Chauncy]

No the BB should not be the bring it.. it changes the structure and strategy of the game. The low door card is always the bring in

 

[DeeVee8]

Ok. Starting to get it, thanks all.

 

[BGinGA]

I was just going to have the SB/BB post as normal. BB would be the bring in. Is that not going to work?

No. The bring-in is paid by the lowest card on the board, and play continues from there -- players can call the bring-in amount or complete the bet to the small bet amount, if completed, subsequent players can call the small-bet amount or raise (2x the small bet amount). Position is not important in stud games, since the highest showing hand always starts the betting (except on 3rd street, where the lowest card is forced to bet the bring-in amount).

If the structure shows 200/400 blinds, the the table ante would be T400, the forced bring-in would be T200, the small bet amount (3rd and 4th streets) would be T400, and the big bet amount (5th, 6th, and 7th streets) would be T800. One bet and three raises maximum on all streets.

Note that with 200/400 blinds in a board card game, there is T600 in forced dead money in the pot. Same for stud -- a 400 table ante and 200 forced bring-in puts T600 into the pot as forced dead money.

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

Bring in is by the lowest up-card (in the event of a tie like two people with 3’s, the first dealt is the bring in), and subsequent betting rounds start with the highest hand showing.

I've always played that bring in is lowest card by suit (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs are low).

I've never hosted a mix game tournament, but I'd advise changing game every blind level rather than spinning a wheel. It will guarantee each game gets equal time.

For structure, I'd start with a standard NL tournament structure. In levels that are stud, what would have been the big blind is now the bring-in. The small bet is 2x the bring-in, big bet is 4x the bring-in, and ante is 1/3 to 1/4 the bring-in.

 

[DeeVee8]

I've always played that bring in is lowest card by suit (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs are low).

I've never hosted a mix game tournament, but I'd advise changing game every blind level rather than spinning a wheel. It will guarantee each game gets equal time.

For structure, I'd start with a standard NL tournament structure. In levels that are stud, what would have been the big blind is now the bring-in. The small bet is 2x the bring-in, big bet is 4x the bring-in, and ante is 1/3 to 1/4 the bring-in.

Yeah, I'll practice with having a set schedule, but the event I'm shooting for is a halloween thing. The mystery game thing is the hook. They'll all get equal play, you just won't know which one is next.

 

[BGinGA]

For structure, I'd start with a standard NL tournament structure. In levels that are stud, what would have been the big blind is now the bring-in. The small bet is 2x the bring-in, big bet is 4x the bring-in, and ante is 1/3 to 1/4 the bring-in.

That will play too big in relation to the blind games. The small blind amount should be the bring-in. Although my preference is to use individual antes, using them in a multi-game tournament will require that small-denom chips be put into play that have no use or value beside being used as antes. In that specific case, a single table ante (posted by the button player, and equal to the big blind amount) is a much better solution.

I've always played that bring in is lowest card by suit (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs are low).

That is not the correct procedure. Suits are only used to break ties, if more than one player has the same rank of low card (3 clubs is lower than 3 spades).

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

That will play too big in relation to the blind games. The small blind amount should be the bring-in. Although my preference is to use individual antes, using them in a multi-game tournament will require that small-denom chips be put into play that have no use or value beside being used as antes. In that specific case, a single table ante (posted by the button player, and equal to the big blind amount) is a much better solution.

Can't argue either way as I've never hosted a mixed game tournament and don't play a whole lot of limit poker. Out of curiosity, where is my thinking flawed?:
My thoughts were based on standard buy-in to a limit cash game being 25 Big Bets and a standard buy-in to a no-limit cash game is 100 Big Blinds.
If Big Bet = 2 x Small Bet and Small Bet = 2 x Bring-in --> Big Bet = 4 x Bring-in = 4 x Big Blind -> Big Bet = Big Blind.

That is not the correct procedure. Suits are only used to break ties, if more than one player has the same rank of low card (3 clubs is lower than 3 spades).

^^This. That is what I meant, wasn't very clear.

 

[APatHand]

I have a structure sheet for a holdem, O/8 and stud rotation tournament if you are interested.
It is structured as a long, one day tourney for 120-ish runners. By adjusting the blinds and starting stacks you could shorten it up.

 

[BGinGA]

where is my thinking flawed?:

Here:

4 x Bring-in = 4 x Big Blind

Bring-in is not equal to the big blind.

In blind games, the small bet is equal to the big blind. In stud games, the bring-in is typically equal to half of the small bet (stud games don't have blinds).

For example, in an alternating-level limit hold'em/stud game, both of these levels would be comparable:

Hold'em: 200/400 limit = T200 small bet (pre-flop, flop) and T400 big bet (turn, river), but blinds are 100/200.
Stud: 200/400 limit = T200 small bet (3rd street, 4th street) and T400 big bet (5th, 6th, 7th streets), with a T100 bring-in and T200 table ante (or 8 x T25 individual antes).

Both will have T300 dead money in the pot prior to any voluntary betting.

 

[APatHand]

An analysis of stud antes and forced bet size in relation to betting size can be found at:
https://www.pokerstarsschool.com/ar...-Forced-Bet-in-Relation-to-Betting-Structures

 

[RainmanTrail]

You can also deal 7th street as a community card in the rare event there aren’t enough cards remaining.

Bring in is by the lowest up-card (in the event of a tie like two people with 3’s, the first dealt is the bring in), and subsequent betting rounds start with the highest hand showing.

You can find WSOP structures for mixed games that should show how to jump back and forth between limit/NL/PL with the right blinds and limits.

Bring in is by the lowest up-card ordered by suit. 2c < 2d < 2h < 2s

 

[RainmanTrail]

Stud games are pretty much only played as limit games because of the nature of having upcards. It would be a pretty lame game to play it NL or even PL because of the upcards.

Something else worth remembering is that in stud hi, you can double bet on 4th street if you pair your door card. However, you can't do that in stud hi-lo, only stud hi.

Example:

Player A - {}
Player B - {}

In this situation, player A acts first and has the option to make a double bet since he paired his J. If he chooses to check instead, player B then has the option to make the double bet if he wants, which rarely happens, but in a hand like this one, he may want to.

 

[RainmanTrail]

In stud games, the ante structure has a huge effect on how loose or tight the game is played. At the higher stakes, stud is largely about stealing antes with the right frequency, and that is heavily dependent on the structure. Some games are set up to give you about 1.2 to 1 on your steal attempt while other games will give you 2.5 to 1. The higher the reward for stealing, the looser the game.

 

[asian bino]

HORSE: https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/9382-structure.pdf

 

[asian bino]

I didn't read all the replies above, but, in Stud HIgh (not hi-lo) Any OPEN PAIR on 4th street is allowed to make a DOUBLE BET, so they have the option of a single (small bet ) or full bet like they would have on 5th street...one of those weird rules that sneaks by people.

 

[DeeVee8]

Appreciate all the info!

 

[andy699669]

Is the bring in a bet opener, which means the next players can call that bring-in or complete/raise or fold?

 

[APatHand]

Is the bring in a bet opener, which means the next players can call that bring-in or complete/raise or fold?

Yes. The person required to "bring it in" can bet the bring-in amount or complete the bet themself.

In spread limit games, the person could bring it in for the maximum bet if they wanted to.
I suppose in no limit, they could jam on the bring in.