TOURNAMENT: Flopped Trips from BB. Decision Points on all 4 streets. (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

Synopsis: It's the last event of our poker league regular season. 9 starters - all of whom are qualified for the championship event.

5 out of 9 players remain. Payouts to top 3 with 3rd place getting a refund of their buy-in. exactly 500,000 chips on the table.

Game: NLHE with one pre-break rebuy allowed & optional break add-on of 10k chips for $10. Starting stack: 30k with 2k on-time bonus.

Level 9 (first round after break): 2000*/3000 with no ante.

*SB is 2k instead of 1500 so we can remove the 500 chips during the break. The rest of the structure is uniform.

Relevant stacks/reads:

Cutoff: Experienced, solid tournament player with some of the consistently best finishes in our league events. Lead this season in knockouts. I've been playing with this lady for a while and never seen her get out of line. Stack~80k

SB: DIfficult to range due to LAG/loose-passive style. will call raises and reraises cold with holdings as weak as 5-6o. Will call with any and all draws; only folds to flop bets after complete whiffs. More or less of an action junkie; understands that his playing style is fundamentally bad but does it anyhow. Usually finishes near last in all league events and rebuys more than anyone. Calls definitively imply he has connected with board to some degree... including slowplaying monsters. Has been hitting hands and donking off chips all night; 6 handed he had half the chips in play but was down to an average stack by this point. Stack~101k

BB (Hero): Stack: 99k

CO opens to 8k, which has been the pretty standard raise for this level. Button folds; SB ponders briefly then casually flicks a white and orange chip in to call. Hero looks down at .

The choices are call or shove. While this is in all likelihood a standard blind steal from CO, SB's call means he's committed to seeing a flop. The only reason to raise here is to take the pot down immediately, and only a shove will achieve this. Hero elects to flat here closing the action; shoving while likely to be effective in picking up the pot is excessively reckless considering CO's calling range includes all hands that dominate hero.

Flop comes .

SB stares at the flop for longer than usual then quietly checks. It's difficult to tell how SB feels about this flop. Action is now on Hero. Check or Bet?

Spoiler: My Action

CO will check this flop back against two opponents A LOT. While I'd love to give her a free card for her to make a strong second-best hand, I also know she will call if she connected with this flop anyhow. Hero elects to bet 12k, an amount I figure she'd would bet if she led out. Her raising range is very narrow at this point, so there's more to be gained by betting as opposed to going for a c-raise.

CO ponders for about 5 seconds, looks at me with a annoyed, suspicious glance and then mucks. SB flings a call into the pot rather casually, then his posture immediate shifts to where he is very engaged in the turn. He watched it hit the board as the dealer peels it off. Pot=48k.

Spoiler: The Turn

SB sees the turn and forcefully checks, emphatically tapping his fingertips into the felt in front of his stack 3 or 4 times. I glance away from him to see a turned has hit the board.

Hero's action?

Spoiler: My turn action

I take about 20 seconds to consider the merits of shoving. SB is difficult to range, so while a flopped flush draw or some type of hand that contains a 6 are leading possibilities, he could also have Q-6, 6-6, or a hand that contains a queen. He could also have a small pocket pair... all of which he would check/call this flop with. Ace-Broadway hands are even possibilities.

I figure if I was ahead on the flop, I'm still ahead now so going for value is the better option than shoving, which will only be called by a hand that beats ours. We're confident SB won't call off his entire stack on a draw unless it's a monster (like if he held ).

I bet 22k*, UTG quickly calls. Pot = 92k.

*The best sizing here is probably debatable. I chose a slightly conservative amount in the interest of balancing stack preservation while inducing a call. SB probably would have called off 1/2 his stack here, but a pot sized bet would only leave me with about 10 BBs should I get to showdown and lose.

Spoiler: River

The river card is . SB shoves all in. I ask for a count, only to confirm that he has me covered, which he slightly does. Hero's action?

Spoiler: My River Action

Against just about any other regular in our league, the possibility that we're beat (or were never ahead) has to be strongly considered and folding would be the leading option there. Folding is also an option here, but SB's river shove doesn't come as a big surprise and is borderline to be expected. As I ponder a call, I factor in that SB is capable of shoving any river in this spot.

Folding leaves my stack at ~15 BBs which is maneuverable 5-handed, and actually makes blind stealing easier IMO. It's also only one double-up back to an average stack.

While I don't often put much stock into pot odds in NLHE tournaments, getting a 3-1 price for a call is at least worth briefly considering.

I ended up calling.

"Flush", SB says before tabling .

So lastly, I'm interested to discuss the merits of the action-killing overbet (READ: shove) vs. a valuebet. In cash games there's not much of a debate, but in tournaments is there a risk-threshold where accumulating chips is < remaining in the tournament?

 

[BGinGA]

Having read no spoilers whatsoever....

I'm betting 10k 25K (edited for actual pot size), jamming over any raise, and calling any shove. If just called, launching another pot-size bet on any non-heart turn. If an ace or king hits and either villain has AA or KK, so be it -- I get stacked.

May need to fade some hearts, unless it's a jack... and there are also three good 6's plus another queen out there. Life is good.

 

[bsdunbar1]

25K, jamming over any raise, and calling any shove.

I agree with this action (seen it in play with a flopped set last night )

 

[DrStrange]

Given all that we know, hero should have folded preflop. . . .

I found hero's thoughts about jamming preflop to be an interesting table read. The pot is 24,000 once hero catches up to the raise. Hero has 91,000 left behind. So, Hero thinks his only options are call 5,000 or jam 96,000 into 24,000? Can't fold. Can't make a raise smaller than 3X+ pot. That sounds like an easily exploitable table if the read is accurate.

Once hero sees the flop, he is likely pot committed. Looking back at Hero's table read regarding the preflop action, I have to think someone at the table will call any bet hero cares to make. I vote a pot sized bet on the flop. jam the turn. A good case can be made for jamming the flop. But it isn't going to matter, SB is calling all in and Hero is going bust.

<Shrug> Hero was ahead when most of the chips went in the pot -=- DrStrange

 

[Moxie Mike]

Having read no spoilers whatsoever....

I'm betting 10k 25K (edited for actual pot size), jamming over any raise, and calling any shove. If just called, launching another pot-size bet on any non-heart turn. If an ace or king hits and either villain has AA or KK, so be it -- I get stacked.

May need to fade some hearts, unless it's a jack... and there are also three good 6's plus another queen out there. Life is good.

I agree with this action (seen it in play with a flopped set last night )

I don't have any regrets as to how I played the hand - although it occurred to me at the time that a pot-sized bet could kill my action. This flop is definitely one of those 'if I'm beat I'm beat' kind of situations.

 

[BGinGA]

I prefer to force players to make large errors if drawing, so I'm very unlikely to bet 1/2-pot or smaller (unless I have the unbreakable nuts). If a pot-size bet takes down the pot, I'm okay with adding another 25% to my stack, too.

I think both the flop and turn bets were too small. Maybe he still calls, maybe he doesn't, but if so, most of the money went in as a big favorite, and if he folds, that's fine with me.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Given all that we know, hero should have folded preflop. . . .

I found hero's thoughts about jamming preflop to be an interesting table read. The pot is 24,000 once hero catches up to the raise. Hero has 91,000 left behind. So, Hero thinks his only options are call 5,000 or jam 96,000 into 24,000? Can't fold. Can't make a raise smaller than 3X+ pot. That sounds like an easily exploitable table if the read is accurate.

CO is in all likelihood just hoping to pick up the blinds. Her hand probably has some playability to it (ace/rag, suited one or two gapper, etc.) but I highly doubt she has a premium here. She understands position and how to chip up at this stage of the tournament. Her open is a standard play for any competent player.

It's the SB's involvement that influences me to consider shoving. If he had folded, then shoving becomes even less merited. I disagree that this is a fold pre here - but that's probably just more of a difference in philosophy than a debatable argument. My experience is that QJ suited plays too well in this spot to not at least take a flop here. I respect your opinion though.

As to the jam or call debate, it's more of a thing where does risking my stack to pick up 8 BBs make sense? Even if the risk of getting in bad is very low, there's always the possibility CO has a strong hand... so closing the action and taking a shot at outflopping her feels preferable to jamming to win a few BBs. I know her game well enough to know she isn't calling off ~25BBs without 10-10 or better, especially with the SB yet to act. She'll choose to wait for a better spot. As to the SB, he has junk here and won't call a shove. He wouldn't sandbag a big hand OOP against a standard bet from the CO with me yet to act.

Once hero sees the flop, he is likely pot committed. Looking back at Hero's table read regarding the preflop action, I have to think someone at the table will call any bet hero cares to make. I vote a pot sized bet on the flop. jam the turn. A good case can be made for jamming the flop. But it isn't going to matter, SB is calling all in and Hero is going bust.

<Shrug> Hero was ahead when most of the chips went in the pot -=- DrStrange

I could have moved him off his hand on the flop or turn with a shove. I considered it, but I decided killing my action with a massive overbet was too risk averse. Granted, a pot sized bet on the flop makes an all-in on the turn also a pot sized bet, but I want action in this spot, right?

 

[timinater]

I can't get on board with that turn bet sizing. I get wanting to embrace a bit of gamble for max payoff, but to give both flush draws a great price? Calling 22k to win 70k is better than 3:1, and that, my friend is crack to the LAG-Donk. Especially when half the time a flush comes in on this river.

I think you can find a fold on the river, especially in a tournament when the villian check/calls, check/calls then open jams when the flush comes in.

 

[Anthony Martino]

CO opens to 8k, which has been the pretty standard raise for this level. Button folds; SB ponders briefly then casually flicks a white and orange chip in to call. Hero looks down at .

The choices are call or shove. While this is in all likelihood a standard blind steal from CO, SB's call means he's committed to seeing a flop. The only reason to raise here is to take the pot down immediately, and only a shove will achieve this. Hero elects to flat here closing the action; shoving while likely to be effective in picking up the pot is excessively reckless considering CO's calling range includes all hands that dominate hero.

Flop comes .

SB stares at the flop for longer than usual then quietly checks. It's difficult to tell how SB feels about this flop. Action is now on Hero. Check or Bet?

Usually when a player stares at the flop it means they're trying to find a way for the board to make sense with their hand (i.e. it didn't hit them very strongly).

I believe the pot at this point is 24K so you can go for the check-shove if you think the CO will c-bet most times when checked to here, or you could donk bet into them, hoping that they have a monster like KK or AA that will think you're taking a stab at it with a weaker holding they have crushed (i.e. lead for 16K and be ready to stack off)

At this point I'm not really concerned with the SB, the CO could have us dominated here which would be unfortunate, but given stack sizes and current blinds, I'm probably willing to go broke in this spot.

So either check-shove all-in or donk 16K into the CO is my vote

 

[Moxie Mike]

I can't get on board with that turn bet sizing. I get wanting to embrace a bit of gamble for max payoff, but to give both flush draws a great price? Calling 22k to win 70k is better than 3:1, and that, my friend is crack to the LAG-Donk. Especially when half the time a flush comes in on this river.

I think you can find a fold on the river, especially in a tournament when the villian check/calls, check/calls then open jams when the flush comes in.

It was a backdoor flush that got there, so it was more difficult to see coming.

 

[Anthony Martino]

CO will check this flop back against two opponents A LOT. While I'd love to give her a free card for her to make a strong second-best hand, I also know she will call if she connected with this flop anyhow. Hero elects to bet 12k, an amount I figure she'd would bet if she led out. Her raising range is very narrow at this point, so there's more to be gained by betting as opposed to going for a c-raise.

CO ponders for about 5 seconds, looks at me with a annoyed, suspicious glance and then mucks. SB flings a call into the pot rather casually, then his posture immediate shifts to where he is very engaged in the turn. He watched it hit the board as the dealer peels it off. Pot=48k.


SB sees the turn and forcefully checks, emphatically tapping his fingertips into the felt in front of his stack 3 or 4 times. I glance away from him to see a turned has hit the board.

Hero's action?

Ok pot is 48K and we have a stack remaining of 79K with blinds. Just rereading and seeing that the CO doesn't usually get out of line and the SB is kinda a station. We bet, and you say the SB will fold if they completely whiff on the flop, but here they called.

So do they have a Queen, a 6, a flush draw? There's only one other Queen in the deck, so I'm not overly concerned with being coolered here. My best guess is their most likely holding is going to be X6 or a flush draw. They have us barely covered, but I still figure we're ahead so I want to charge them if they're trying to outdraw us (or drawing dead with just a 6 in their hand)

We can bet 25-35K here, if they call the pot balloons over 100K and we have half a pot sized bet or less left on the river. Or we can shove here if we're trying to reduce our risk of ruin should they have the heart flush draw.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Usually when a player stares at the flop it means they're trying to find a way for the board to make sense with their hand (i.e. it didn't hit them very strongly).

I believe the pot at this point is 24K so you can go for the check-shove if you think the CO will c-bet most times when checked to here, or you could donk bet into them, hoping that they have a monster like KK or AA that will think you're taking a stab at it with a weaker holding they have crushed (i.e. lead for 16K and be ready to stack off)

At this point I'm not really concerned with the SB, the CO could have us dominated here which would be unfortunate, but given stack sizes and current blinds, I'm probably willing to go broke in this spot.

So either check-shove all-in or donk 16K into the CO is my vote

The CO checks back too often here to check this flop with trip Qs. I might check a FD or A6 here, but I really don't want to give a free card to the SB. I think I agree that my flop bet sizing was incorrect - I should have realized that any bet up to around 40k or so was effectively going to elicit the same response from the SB. I should have bet as much as he would reasonably call, making shoving any turn a standard play.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I take about 20 seconds to consider the merits of shoving. SB is difficult to range, so while a flopped flush draw or some type of hand that contains a 6 are leading possibilities, he could also have Q-6, 6-6, or a hand that contains a queen. He could also have a small pocket pair... all of which he would check/call this flop with. Ace-Broadway hands are even possibilities.

I figure if I was ahead on the flop, I'm still ahead now so going for value is the better option than shoving, which will only be called by a hand that beats ours. We're confident SB won't call off his entire stack on a draw unless it's a monster (like if he held ).

I bet 22k*, UTG quickly calls. Pot = 92k.


The river card is . SB shoves all in. I ask for a count, only to confirm that he has me covered, which he slightly does. Hero's action?

Well, there's only one Queen left in the deck, if we got coolered and he flopped full or got there against us that really sucks. Would he shove here with a whiffed heart flush draw? Does he think maybe that's what you were betting and he can push you off a better hand?

We're getting 3:1 on a call here, how reckless is this guy to risk his tournament life on a bluff? Or is he usually only making bets like this with big hands?

 

[Moxie Mike]

Well, there's only one Queen left in the deck, if we got coolered and he flopped full or got there against us that really sucks. Would he shove here with a whiffed heart flush draw? Does he think maybe that's what you were betting and he can push you off a better hand?

We're getting 3:1 on a call here, how reckless is this guy to risk his tournament life on a bluff? Or is he usually only making bets like this big hands?

He has air (busted heart draw) on this river often enough to call on those merits alone. A smaller queen is just as likely as a AQ or a FH too... so we're ahead of a few of his made hands too. The runner-runner flush runout is pretty brutal, but I laid him a good enough price to where I can't honestly say I wouldn't have played it the same way in his spot.

Conclusion: Bet stronger on every street, hope for a call but be content with a small win without having to show when they muck.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I know that small bet and raise sizes have become a popular move in tournament poker, but this is a great example of why it's not always a good idea.

Against your typical fit-or-fold players who seldom get out of line, small bets are usually okay. But against a guy who's in there to gamble, he'll be looking for every chance he can find to get involved in pots.

Moreover, unless you've got a lock like aces full, you generally want to take down low-risk pots rather than build stack-threatening pots. If you have opponents who call loosely, that means avoiding giving them attractive odds like half-pot or smaller bets.

The line you took here is the line you want to take when you flop the boat. Bet amounts that show you're strong enough to bet, but that entice dead draws to come along. But you don't want to do the same thing when you're actually vulnerable.

 

[JustinInMN]

Snap post, just shove all in. Okay I will read now.

 

[Frogzilla]

My feedback:

-Like the preflop call
-Hate the flop lead. Average CO will cbet plenty on this type of board. This is a slam dunk flop check-jam. Also I hate unbalanced plays and I suspect you rarely donk-bluff.
-bet sizing: kind of in a middle ground here. Either go lower on flop/turn so we have a meaningful river bet, or size up on flop and overjam turn.

 

[Moxie Mike]

-Hate the flop lead. Average CO will cbet plenty on this type of board. This is a slam dunk flop check-jam. Also I hate unbalanced plays and I suspect you rarely donk-bluff.
-bet sizing: kind of in a middle ground here. Either go lower on flop/turn so we have a meaningful river bet, or size up on flop and overjam turn.

Thing about this CO is that I know her well enough that she won't C-bet into these two opponents with air. One opponent? Yes, but not two. She won't put another chip in the pot without having connected with the board. Now, if the SB had folded, I'd still have taken a flop and more than likely checked to her on the flop. And in all likelihood she'd have C-bet and the rest of the hand would have played itself.

So leading out with two opponents is better in the sense that if she folds, it's better than her checking behind and giving the SB a free look at the turn - and if she calls, I get much more insight as to the strength of her hand since she needs a much stronger hand to call with than to C-bet. And of course if she raises I get her stack.

My bet sizing on the flop and turn was improper and I paid the price. Lesson learned.

/thread

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay I like every street. :Qs::Js: is almost too good to turn it to a bluff pre, especially when the price to call is about 5 to win 21. You can call much weaker than this. It's okay to put some stronger calls in this range as well.

I like the flop play fine. I wouldn't be thinking free cards here with two opponents and a two flush out there. CO may have to call with some outright misses here. Sounds like he had like an AT, KJ.

The turn is the trickiest street, but I think these were your choices.

I think you picked the smallest possible sizing that makes any sense. Any more and you are pot and you are pot committed on the river anyway. Any less allows villian to call widely. Also half the deck is scary on the river with two two-flushes on board now. You are going to want to check a lot of rivers, this may be the last chance for value.

The shove is the only other option that makes since. It's more than pot about 80k into 48k, and there is no value in it, you are only called where beaten. Maybe the hearts that just picked up straight draws AT, KT,T9,T8. Otherwise, this bet is never for value and always for protection. There is merit in protection bets when the pot is significant and you are unlikely to be against hands that beat you. I think this may apply here.

The river is the toughest choice. How many bluffs can villian have? It feels results oriented to say this is a fold, but I think QJ is probably low in our distribution for hands we bet twice. Unless we think this river shove is missed hearts a lot, I think we can fold.

With the pot odds, we would have to come up with one bluff for every three value combos. we probably aren't thinking lesser queen. We would mostly be thinking clubs. Any combos not containing a 6? Any chance this person is never bluffing. The only bluffs that make sense are missed hearts not contianing :Kh:, is this that sorry of player? If not, I think we can fold. We can have full houses, and some clubs ourselves.

Doesn't make it easy though.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think you picked the smallest possible sizing that makes any sense. Any more and you are pot and you are pot committed on the river anyway. Any less allows villian to call widely. Also half the deck is scary on the river with two two-flushes on board now. You are going to want to check a lot of rivers, this may be the last chance for value.

The shove is the only other option that makes since. It's more than pot about 80k into 48k, and there is no value in it, you are only called where beaten. Maybe the hearts that just picked up straight draws AT, KT,T9,T8. Otherwise, this bet is never for value and always for protection. There is merit in protection bets when the pot is significant and you are unlikely to be against hands that beat you. I think this may apply here.

The river is the toughest choice. How many bluffs can villian have? It feels results oriented to say this is a fold, but I think QJ is probably low in our distribution for hands we bet twice. Unless we think this river shove is missed hearts a lot, I think we can fold.

Doesn't make it easy.

In this situation against this opponent I'm never getting away from trip Qs. He has air or a hand we beat often enough to justify a call. With this guy, Q2s is in his range. In fact, a backdoor flush was just about the last thing I expected him to turn over. I was a little worried that he might have KQ, which is partly why I went for value (22k bet) on the turn. I extract value when I'm ahead and potentially minimize losses when behind. I may well have even checked back the river if given the chance.

Shoving the turn is the most risk-averse play, essentially killing the hand dead and chipping up a little. It's the equivalent to pushing AA when you're 100BBs deep. Tournament poker is a game of risk management - I clearly tolerated too much risk with my flop and turn bet sizing but the only way I could ever have won that hand was to take what I could get. A bigger flop bet would have extracted more value and then allowed me to protect my hand on the turn.

 

[Frogzilla]

Thing about this CO is that I know her well enough that she won't C-bet into these two opponents with air. One opponent? Yes, but not two. She won't put another chip in the pot without having connected with the board.

My bet sizing on the flop and turn was improper and I paid the price. Lesson learned.

Then the lead is good. I think I prefer the smaller sizing which would have not helped in this particular sb holding/runout. If you flop trips and the backdoor draw gets there, well, you gotta lose sometimes and that’s a good way to do it

 

[WedgeRock]

If a pot-size bet takes down the pot, I'm okay with adding another 25% to my stack, too.

I struggle with this...max'ing value versus taking the sure win.

And always potting in this situation is probably not right. Gotta mix it up a little.

 

[JustinInMN]

In this situation against this opponent I'm never getting away from trip Qs

In that case no regrets, put the chips in. Generally, I like half to 2/3 pot bets unless the board is extra wet. Thinking about sizing more if you had gone 20k on this flop, you would have set up closer to a pot size shove on the turn. About 71k into 64k. Also it's probably good in general to size it is against loose opponents. Still who knows? Maybe villian still heros with a 6 and now has a flush draw just in case.

I struggle with this...max'ing value versus taking the sure win.

My rule of thumb is the smaller the pot the more you want to build it, the bigger the pot the more it is worth protecting.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

The flop is a check jam. CO is never checking back right? Fooling around on the turn with a tiny bet for the SB is silly, your only concern on the turn at that point should be getting all the chips in. If SB has something dumb like Q6 then it's simply your turn to go broke. I like a fold on the flop only because a fish is never ever bluffing there, but a better approach is to get all the chips in before that last card peels off at all.

 

[Moxie Mike]

The flop is a check jam. CO is never checking back right? Fooling around on the turn with a tiny bet for the SB is silly, your only concern on the turn at that point should be getting all the chips in. If SB has something dumb like Q6 then it's simply your turn to go broke. I like a fold on the flop only because a fish is never ever bluffing there, but a better approach is to get all the chips in before that last card peels off at all.

I think possibly you may have mis-read my remarks. In any case, CO checks back this flop against 2 opponents when she's missed.

 

[Gobbs]

I have read no other comments or spoilers and will read them as I go, after I comment on each street.

Pre-flop, I have no problem with the call. Seems reasonable.

My Flop: 24000 in the pot. I don’t like checking here at all with two others in the pot and no guarantee the only other player left to act will bet it for you. Plus, you seem suspicious of the SB. So, the only reasonable action is to bet. I like about 18,000 here. From what you described, that amount seems like it would get the CO to fold a speculative hand but still induce a call from SB (assuming we want one for now) if he has anything. Still, I wouldn’t have minded taking it down right here.

Your Flop: 12000 seems light here, but did get the desired result from CO probably. I’m worried about SB, but we will see.

My Turn: 48000 in pot and, if my math is right, you both have about 80000 in chips. I think there is only one move left (and also why I favor a bigger bet on the flop). All-in. If he has a better queen, so be it. You were never folding here, anyway.

Your turn: 22000 seems very light here. Even if you don’t lose another chip, your stack is down to less than 20 BBs and, I’m guessing, under 15 BBs soon. You already had the information you needed from flop. Take it down now or make him pay big.

My River: Either he got there, he didn’t get there and bluffed, he has us beat, or he has a weaker Q and thinks he has us beat. (Boy, that narrowed it down. LOL) I think you painted yourself into a corner here with bet sizing. You have to call.

Your River: I think right decision, but poor results.

I’m not sure if my betting would have taken down the pot or your strategy would have milked more chips out of him had the club not hit on the river, but when in doubt, I prefer aggression. Despite our differences, the only real issue I had with you decisions was the turn and you already acknowledged that it was light.