This is why I don't play DFS

snooptodd

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First the online wizards killed online poker (okay, the DOJ did that, but the wizards played a big part in making the games unsustainable), and now they're killing daily fantasy sports just as they look like they might boom.

Check out the standings in this $3 tournament.

https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/8453872?uc=116212858

banders234 took 30 of the top 40 spots (in a tourney with more than 55k entries). He made $45667.67 on 480 entries ($1,440 paid in entry fees). And he did it by running a script the entered all his lineups for him, going heavy on Washington, Minnesota, the Yankees and Cubs. (more info on his strategy in this thread: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/mlb-8-20-786357?page=5#reply-787468).

I'd love to bet $3 a night on daily fantasy, but when I have to compete against guys that have a bigger edge over me than Phil Ivey does at the poker table, and oh yeah, they can enter 480 times vs. my 1, it ain't gonna happen.
 

tigon

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I tried getting into it recently and I've noticed it feels like it's tailored towards this sort of player too. Not only do you have to sweat every lineup you make until game time for injuries and substitutions, there's a definite lack of immediacy you normally get with other types of gambling. Not for me.
 

abby99

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Sounds like the equivalent of using a good bot to play HU LHE online, except that the DFS guy is not violating the site's T&C. Or is he?
 

Poker Zombie

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I had a mild interest in fantasy sports at one time, but lost it after a couple of seasons. Simply put, it ruined the way I watch sports. I'd rather cheer for a team than a single player. I shouldn't cheer when a halfback misses a block, then cheer when he runs the ball for a TD on the next play. That's effectively me telling the player, "Don't help the team, just help yourself".
 

Ronoh

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Craziness but a bad example of why daily fantasy is screwed because what that guy did (30 out of top 40, 48 of top 100) is not ordinary.

The very first night PokerStars introduced their 180-man sit-n-gos, myself and 5 other guys at the poker forum I frequented back then entered five consecutive ones (each one filled and started roughly 6 minutes apart). I took 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 5th and failed to cash in the other. It happens, but it doesn't happen often.

$3 entry with a $145,000 guaranteed pot, which almost but didn't quite make the guarantee... it's only because of the guys who enter ungodly amounts of times that large payouts like this are even possible. 55,000 entries and this guy single handedly covered 1% of the prize pool out of pocket. More power to him! He ended up having a nearly impossible dream day and made 30x his buyin.
 

Zippity

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First the online wizards killed online poker (okay, the DOJ did that, but the wizards played a big part in making the games unsustainable), and now they're killing daily fantasy sports just as they look like they might boom.

Check out the standings in this $3 tournament.

https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/8453872?uc=116212858

banders234 took 30 of the top 40 spots (in a tourney with more than 55k entries). He made $45667.67 on 480 entries ($1,440 paid in entry fees). And he did it by running a script the entered all his lineups for him, going heavy on Washington, Minnesota, the Yankees and Cubs. (more info on his strategy in this thread: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/mlb-8-20-786357?page=5#reply-787468).

I'd love to bet $3 a night on daily fantasy, but when I have to compete against guys that have a bigger edge over me than Phil Ivey does at the poker table, and oh yeah, they can enter 480 times vs. my 1, it ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately stuff like this just makes me shrug. Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for you, but this is something he probably planned to a great extent; invested hours of study for, and applied a skill (botting) that others haven't grasped. While he has an obvious edge, you have to realize that he put time, effort and skills into something that you didn't have equal footing on and thus he garnered an advantage. If you don't agree with his methods, but realize they work, then you need to revamp your strategy; learn how to bot, learn how to choose teams and players wisely, and then take the chance.

This may sound crude to 99.9% of the population, but botting isn't cheating when it comes to drafting as it confers no probability advantage outside of quantity of submission. But since quantity of submission carries the same cost per submission, the advantage conferred is based on reducing probability much like a raffle, where the odds of drawing the right ticket is based on chance as opposed to skill.It's much like using 50 "quick picks" on a lottery ticket versus writing them all out, the only advantage is the speed of submission. He still has to make the right guesses. Sure, he has a higher chance of winning since he submitted 50 tickets, but no more than the normal probability of such tickets.

The only way botting becomes cheating is if benefits are reaped for repetitive rewards such as MMPORGs where they use "bots" to "farm" for in game currency.
 
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snooptodd

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Unfortunately stuff like this just makes me shrug. Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for you, but this is something he probably planned to a great extent; invested hours of study for, and applied a skill (botting) that others haven't grasped. While he has an obvious edge, you have to realize that he put time, effort and skills into something that you didn't have equal footing on and thus he garnered an advantage. If you don't agree with his methods, but realize they work, then you need to revamp your strategy; learn how to bot, learn how to choose teams and players wisely, and then take the chance.

This may sound crude to 99.9% of the population, but botting isn't cheating when it comes to drafting as it confers no probability advantage outside of quantity of submission. But since quantity of submission carries the same cost per submission, the advantage conferred is based on reducing probability much like a raffle, where the odds of drawing the right ticket is based on chance as opposed to skill.It's much like using 50 "quick picks" on a lottery ticket versus writing them all out, the only advantage is the speed of submission. He still has to make the right guesses. Sure, he has a higher chance of winning since he submitted 50 tickets, but no more than the normal probability of such tickets.

The only way botting becomes cheating is if benefits are reaped for repetitive rewards such as MMPORGs where they use "bots" to "farm" for in game currency.

I'm not accusing him of cheating, nor am I saying that there isn't skill involved. I'm just saying he's going to scare away all the regular folks like me who might like to play but wouldn't ever invest the time necessary to do something like this.

And to clarify, I really should have made it more clear in the OP that I don't blame the player, I blame the game. The fact that DraftKings allows this type of play to build up prize pools is pretty irresponsible for long-term success, in my opinion.

Don't feel horrible for me, it almost certainly saves me in the long run. If I played DFS, I'd undoubtedly lose money. The fact that people can dominate like this makes it abundantly clear that I a HUGE dog, rather than delude myself into believing I'm just a small one so it's worth a shot. I wonder how many players like me DraftKings is leaving on the sidelines by allowing multientry pools like this?
 

Ronoh

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I wonder how many players like me DraftKings is leaving on the sidelines by allowing multientry pools like this?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the size of the prize pools is better for business than catering to the smaller-timers would be.

If multi-entry isn't your thing there are plenty of 10-1000+ man single entry pools at all buy-in levels between DK and FD... it's kinda like refusing to play PokerStars tournaments because of the craziness of the $10/$500,000G rebuys.
 

tigon

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The thing with the multi-entry is that lower buyin fields and big events frequently hit the entry cap hours before an event even starts.
 

Mental Nomad

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He made $45667.67 on 480 entries ($1,440 paid in entry fees).

Well, his payout was 31.7 per dollar. Your $3 entry, if it hit, could pay a lot more than $100.

As long as his bot-entries aren't causing regular bettors like you to get capped out of your choice of entry, I don't see it as inherently wrong - and I thought sweating the lineup was part of the fun for you guys, isn't it? (I don't do fantasy sports.)
 

Ronoh

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The thing with the multi-entry is that lower buyin fields and big events frequently hit the entry cap hours before an event even starts.
A non-issue. Using NFL as the example, the only people that really affects are the pure recreationals looking for something to play on Sunday mornings.
 

snooptodd

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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the size of the prize pools is better for business than catering to the smaller-timers would be.

If multi-entry isn't your thing there are plenty of 10-1000+ man single entry pools at all buy-in levels between DK and FD... it's kinda like refusing to play PokerStars tournaments because of the craziness of the $10/$500,000G rebuys.

Fair point.
 
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