Tourney T5 Base (1 Viewer)

[Brandon]

Someone very versed in tourney functionality please explain the disdain for T5 base tourneys.

 

[allforcharity]

I have no disdain for them whatsoever.

 

[Brandon]

I’ve heard a few folks say they can’t stand them….im curious why. I am partial to T25 for sure….but just wondering if it’s blind structure and color up timing

 

[Szczesnk]

At the end of the day they are all just numbers and multipliers of numbers depending on the T-base. My only two cents is saying 'All In' for 112 chips doesn't have the same effect as it does for say 20,000 or 50,000.

 

[upNdown]

I’ve found them to have more clumsy levels requiring 3 or 4 chips to make a blind than a T25. Not a big deal, but it’s a consideration.

Honestly, the only good reason to choose a T5 in my mind is because that’s the chipset that you have. But that could be a very good reason. I couldn’t care less about higher denoms for the sake of higher denoms.

 

[Szczesnk]

Here's a thread that goes more into the weeds.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pros-and-cons-t5-vs-t25-vs-t100.110852/post-2287912

 

[springbox]

Few reasons I could think of. They're non-standard so player's aren't used to the betting amounts like they are with T25 and T100. I think for whatever reason it's also easier for people to think in increments of 25 and 100 than increments of 5.

 

[allforcharity]

Few reasons I could think of. They're non-standard so player's aren't used to the betting amounts like they are with T25 and T100. I think for whatever reason it's also easier for people to think in increments of 25 and 100 than increments of 5.

Like everything, it's about how tourneys evolved. I think T5 used to be quite standard, but that was probably a fair long time ago, and the numbers have just moved up with time.

I like the T5 base, just because I can multiply everything by 1000 and start with my T5000-base set!

 

[Grimalkin]

I used to run a T5 Base T1500 stack for 20 years or so. Recently changed to T25 base T20k stack. I do like the bigger betting amounts, as mentioned above, it’s funner to bet thousands than hundreds. I also find the blinds flow better up until the first colour up.

I’ll also mention that the T25 base lets me easily adjust the base stacks to fun crazy deep levels of 50k and 100k, something not possible with T5 base. So I’m glad I switched to T25…

 

[allforcharity]

I’ll also mention that the T25 base lets me easily adjust the base stacks to fun crazy deep levels of 50k and 100k, something not possible with T5 base. So I’m glad I switched to T25…

This is a strange statement. Of course it is possible to have T5 base with 500B, 1000BB, or whatever you want.

 

[JustinInMN]

Like everything, it's about how tourneys evolved. I think T5 used to be quite standard, but that was probably a fair long time ago, and the numbers have just moved up with time.

I like the T5 base, just because I can multiply everything by 1000 and start with my T5000-base set!

Certainly in the hey-day of the internet sit and go, I think T5 was the standard. When WSOP went mainstream (gasp) 20 years or so ago, is when T25 really solidified itself as the standard. It was $10,000 for 10,000 in chips then and blinds started at 25-50, that became so famous most live rooms started copying this for tournaments of all buy-ins. Now that WSOP went base T100 I guess about 5 or so years ago (pretty sure it was pre covid at least), rooms are starting to follow that as well. Bottom line, whatever is "standard" is always subject to change as evidenced in the past few decades.

I’ve found them to have more clumsy levels requiring 3 or 4 chips to make a blind than a T25. Not a big deal, but it’s a consideration.

Honestly, the only good reason to choose a T5 in my mind is because that’s the chipset that you have. But that could be a very good reason. I couldn’t care less about higher denoms for the sake of higher denoms.

I do think this about the only big downside to T5 tournaments, at the same time T100 tournaments have the same issue and they are becoming standard as well.

The devil is in the detail about the ratio of starting chips being a 5x jump vs a 4x jump which is what causes the 4-chip blind phenomenon that @upNdown is citing.

All that said, I have wholly embraced the base T500 as my tournament standard as that initial 2x jump has a couple irrefutable advantages to me with regards to the first color up.

1) No one will ever have more than one "odd" chip for rounding/race-off
2) This color up will remove about half as many chips from play, which to me makes it easier to manage, especially in a multi-table situation.

But whatever your preference, you can make it work. The preferences just lie in the detail of the ratio between the smallest chips needed for the desired starting blinds and stacks.

 

[Grimalkin]

This is a strange statement. Of course it is possible to have T5 base with 500B, 1000BB, or whatever you want.

Yes of course you can do 1000bb, but I can’t do 100k with a T5 base, which would be 10,000BB. I mean I guess I could but that really is just too much.

 

[allforcharity]

Yes of course you can do 1000bb, but I can’t do 100k with a T5 base, which would be 10,000BB. I mean I guess I could but that really is just too much.

Again, a strange statement. Nobody is telling you to do 10,000BB. If you want 1000BB, then have T5k stacks, or T10K if you want 2000BB. There's nothing you can't do with just a little bit of math.

 

[Grimalkin]

Again, a strange statement. Nobody is telling you to do 10,000BB. If you want 1000BB, then have T5k stacks, or T10K if you want 2000BB. There's nothing you can't do with just a little bit of math.

Again, I never said that. The actual number 100k, not the BB, is not really doable with t5 base. 100k psychologically sounds funner than 40k. If I ask my players if they would rather do a T5 40k stack (4000BB) or a T25 100k stack (4000BB), they would do 100k stack all day long. I understand the math. My comment is referring to the psychological aspect of larger stacks.

 

[JustinInMN]

Again, I never said that. The actual number 100k, not the BB, is not really doable with t5 base. 100k psychologically sounds funner than 40k. If I ask my players if they would rather do a T5 40k stack (4000BB) or a T25 100k stack (4000BB), they would do 100k stack all day long. I understand the math. My comment is referring to the psychological aspect of larger stacks.

I get what you are saying, but even that has it's limit. If hundreds-of-thousands are more fun than tens-of-thousands, than millions and tens-of-millions have to be even more fun, right? Or do we hit some point of diminishing returns?

What's standard has become so based on imitation of the most visible tournaments, and they evolve as well.

 

[JustinInMN]

Here's a thread that goes more into the weeds.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pros-and-cons-t5-vs-t25-vs-t100.110852/post-2287912

Ha, I wrote this one , thank you for the love .

 

[upNdown]

I get what you are saying

I 100% don't. We all know that in tournament poker, the size of denominations don't matter. We KNOW that. So why are people drawn to pretend high rollers? I think there's a great argument against them. The bigger the number, the harder it is to accurately express your bet orally. I don't need to announce seven hundred-thousand, when I could say seven hundred more easily.
But on the other hand, if it gets butts in seats, go for it.

 

[Grimalkin]

I 100% don't. We all know that in tournament poker, the size of denominations don't matter. We KNOW that. So why are people drawn to pretend high rollers? I think there's a great argument against them. The bigger the number, the harder it is to accurately express your bet orally. I don't need to announce seven hundred-thousand, when I could say seven hundred more easily.
But on the other hand, if it gets butts in seats, go for it.

I do agree with you, i guess I have a bias for a starting stack between 20-100k, not interested at this time to be betting millions of fake dollars in a tourney for a big blind.

 

[JustinInMN]

I 100% don't. We all know that in tournament poker, the size of denominations don't matter. We KNOW that. So why are people drawn to pretend high rollers? I think there's a great argument against them. The bigger the number, the harder it is to accurately express your bet orally. I don't need to announce seven hundred-thousand, when I could say seven hundred more easily.
But on the other hand, if it gets butts in seats, go for it.

The spirit of the thread is what makes one base different than another, and in the end, the only differences boil down to which chip you want to start with and how convenient it is for your planned structure with regards to the ratios of the next chips in use. It's small and trivial, but it can make a difference to hosts and set planning of course. But to your overall point 200BB is 200BB no matter what chip you start with, you just have to start with some chip.

In the post I made that @Szczesnk linked in this thread, using common, whole-number* chip denominations (1/5/25/100/500/1000/5000/25,000) I am more or less pointing out there really are only 5 distinct bases from which to choose, T-1, T-5, T-25, T-100, and T-500. These five have distinct patterns for chip ratios with the next chips using common chip order. Any other base is probably a repetition of one of these five bases. For example a base T-1000 tournament would likely be identical to a base T-1 tournament with 3 zeros added to each chip. A T-1 base tourney would use denoms of T1/5/25/100/500, a T-1000 base tourney would use denoms of T1000/5000/25K/100K/500K, the progression is the same.

(*An aside here for @BGinGA and his fondness for base T-0.25. I do recognize that as distinct from base-T25 because of the progression of chips involved is different. Base T-0.25 would use denoms of 0.25/1/5/25/100 whereas Base T25 uses 25/100/500/1000/5000, the ratios between the chips in each progression are different. Most notably, no 2x jump in the former. I simply prefer tournaments be fraction free, even if I would consider a lack of a 2x jump an advantage for base T-0.25 base over T-25.)

Now the part of my quote that you clipped was a response strictly to 100k is a "more fun" number than 40k, and I think that is a matter of personal taste, that's the only part "I get." Again, I whole-heartedly agree with you that in the end 200 BB is 200 BB regardless of you construct the stack. The rest of the quote you didn't include is me also pointing out there is a point of absurdity if you take the "bigger numbers are better" argument to an extreme which I know you agree with.

 

[allforcharity]

me also pointing out there is a point of absurdity if you take the bigger numbers are better to an extreme which I know you agree with.

I think you've been called out, @grantc54 !

 

[Grimalkin]

I forgot to mention, the chip set would cost alot more to do a 4000BB with a T5, than a 4000BB with a T25, because now in addition to the T5 base chips, you also need the 1K chips, and the 5K chips. This makes a T25 more cost effective to do a 4000BB, as the set already has those chips as part of the makeup. Just another benefit to the T25 base chip set.

 

[JustinInMN]

I forgot to mention, the chip set would cost alot more to do a 4000BB with a T5, than a 4000BB with a T25, because now in addition to the T5 base chips, you also need the 1K chips, and the 5K chips. This makes a T25 more cost effective to do a 4000BB, as the set already has those chips as part of the makeup. Just another benefit to the T25 base chip set.

This is exactly where analyzing the ratios between the denominations come into play. Part of the reason T25 are seen as more efficient is the first jump is 4x instead of 5x with T5 and T1. (Furthermore T1 has two 5x jumps in a row to start.) And the part of the reason I am personally partial to T500 as I mentioned the advantages of starting with the 2x jump above .

 

[upNdown]

Is anybody actually playing a 4K bb tournament? That’s 200,000 stacks starting at 25/50. Or 400,000 stacks starting at 100/100.
The deepest I’ve ever seen personally was a 100,000 starting at 25/50. But that thing had 15 minute levels and some big jumps. And you’d get sucked out on in the early levels by somebody playing 4 8 because the early levels were meaningless.

 

[Grimalkin]

Is anybody actually playing a 4K bb tournament? That’s 200,000 stacks starting at 25/50. Or 400,000 stacks starting at 100/100.
The deepest I’ve ever seen personally was a 100,000 starting at 25/50. But that thing had 15 minute levels and some big jumps. And you’d get sucked out on in the early levels by somebody playing 4 8 because the early levels were meaningless.

Could make 4000BB with 100k stack and a 25/25 starting blind.

 

[allforcharity]

Is anybody actually playing a 4K bb tournament?

Naw, I only plan to do a 1000BB, T5k-based T10M tourney, just like the movie.
1000BB is already insane.

 

[upNdown]

Naw, I only plan to do a 1000BB, T5k-based T10M tourney, just like the movie.
1000BB is already insane.

Don’t get poisoned!

 

[allforcharity]

Don’t get poisoned!

I'll try to have a defibrillator close by.

 

[JustinInMN]

Naw, I only plan to do a 1000BB, T5k-based T10M tourney, just like the movie.
1000BB is already insane.

75s is the best hand.