Cash Game Roughly Equivalent Stakes NL vs FL (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

I was just musing over this topic. As someone that enjoys running dealers choice and mixed big bet and limit, I've always found it a bit hard to really nail down the good balance of stake sizes. The biggest complication IMO is that not all line ups obviously okay big bet games such that they play "the same size."

Often just a simple doubling of the size of the blinds is done as the shortcut when playing a mix like this. I feel like most 1/2 NL games probably play closer to something like 6/12 limit though in terms of buy-in, swings, and hourly rate though.

Thoughts?

 

[grebe]

In my limited experience, I like to think of it more in what does the player risk losing or gain to win on an average night? OF COURSE, big bet will tend to have more extreme cases, but on average:
.50/1 or 1/1 NL will play like a 2/4 limit...maybe 3/6. Most will comfortably lose up to $300.
1/2 NL would be 5/10 limit....but I will concede 6/12 as well....so 3/6 to 6/12 $500 to $800 losses typical
2/5 NL would be up to 20/40 maybe? Getting past my experience level now.

 

[MegaTon44]

In my mind, NL buy-ins generally fall in the 150-200x BB range. Similarly, the buy-in for limit games (former $40/$80 LHE player here) is 25-30x big bet.

If we scale this out, NL stakes play 6-8x deeper than standard limit stakes. In other words, $1/$2 NL would play more like a $6/$12 LHE game, to your point.

Not a perfect translation I'm sure, as it is heavily dependent on the game played, but seems directional to me for HE.

 

[Rhodeman77]

My Pot limit/NL PLO/hold’em game is a $1/2 $300 buy-in. Biggest loser could be as big as $1k but usually more like $600-700.

Our limit game is $5/10 with a 1/2 kill to $7.50/15, the biggest loss so far in that game has been $1k, but the average biggest losses have been $500-600.

 

[TheBigTater]

If you going by stakes as in buyin amounts I would say 1/2 NLHE is closer to 8/16 FLHE based on my normal buyin stakes

200BigBlinds buyin for NLHE (1/2) = $400
25BigBet buyin for FLHE (8/16) = $400

 

[Legend5555]

If you going by stakes as in buyin amounts I would say 1/2 NLHE is closer to 8/16 FLHE based on my normal buyin stakes

200BigBlinds buyin for NLHE (1/2) = $400
25BigBet buyin for FLHE (8/16) = $400

If it was as simple as just buy-in, I'd agree. I was trying to include other factors. Probably avg hourly rates, min/max wins/losses are probably the best comparisons. As pretty much any buy-in in FL of 20BB or higher are basically all equivalent in relation to how much you can lose in any one hand if the betting cap is kept even while heads up.

 

[TheBigTater]

If it was as simple as just buy-in, I'd agree. I was trying to include other factors. Probably avg hourly rates, min/max wins/losses are probably the best comparisons. As pretty much any buy-in in FL of 20BB or higher are basically all equivalent in relation to how much you can lose in any one hand if the betting cap is kept even while heads up.

Well that's a lot of fancy maff there. I consider "stakes" what I'm staking myself (bullets) to play the game.

 

[Legend5555]

Well that's a lot of fancy maff there. I consider "stakes" what I'm staking myself (bullets) to play the game.

My degree says "Maffs Expert."

 

[grebe]

My Pot limit/NL PLO/hold’em game is a $1/2 $300 buy-in. Biggest loser could be as big as $1k but usually more like $600-700.

Our limit game is $5/10 with a 1/2 kill to $7.50/15, the biggest loss so far in that game has been $1k, but the average biggest losses have been $500-600.

I would go by this. Real world shit here.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Going by the feedback I've gotten in some other threads (this is not based on my personal experience, yet):

In a $3/$6 or $4/$8 fixed limit game, the losers will be down anywhere from $100 (typical) to $300 (rare) in an evening of play, i.e. burning through one to three racks of chips playing 3/6 or 4/8.

Let's call it $200. Those same two racks of chips, if used for a $1/$2 NL game, would be 100 bb, or one buy-in in a not-shallow-but-not-deep game. Losers will typically go through, say, two to four buy-ins in a night. Let's play small and call it two.

So to have a FL game with losses comparable to a 1/2 NL game over the course of an evening, you'd be playing 6/12 or 8/16 FL, or somewhere in that neighborhood.

That said, there's a lot of wiggle room in these estimates, and undoubtedly a lot depends on how big or small your games play.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I was just musing over this topic. As someone that enjoys running dealers choice and mixed big bet and limit, I've always found it a bit hard to really nail down the good balance of stake sizes. The biggest complication IMO is that not all line ups obviously okay big bet games such that they play "the same size."

On that note, how do you handle mixing blind games like NL with ante games like Stud? I've read some posts on the topic but I'm curious to know what you're doing, as long as you're musing...

 

[grebe]

On that note, how do you handle mixing blind games like NL with ante games like Stud? I've read some posts on the topic but I'm curious to know what you're doing, as long as you're musing...

two ways:
-ante chips...usually 1/4 or so value of the workhorse chip.
-dealer ante for the table rounded off....so say two chip dealer ante for a full table, 1 for a smaller table.

 

[Legend5555]

On that note, how do you handle mixing blind games like NL with ante games like Stud? I've read some posts on the topic but I'm curious to know what you're doing, as long as you're musing...

In terms of antes, I've done two different things. I've used an ante chip that is very distinguishable from the other chips. Or used a button ante, the size of which varies based on the number of players in the hand. Since it's dealers choice by orbit, the button just continues to rotate and in stud denotes who pays the ante.

Stakes are just the same as whatever the FL blind game stakes are. Trying to compensate for the extra big bet round just isn't worth the effort if that is what you were getting at.

 

[LotsOfChips]

... Most will comfortably lose up to $300.

I’m not comfortable with losing any amount. It happens lots, but I’m never comfortable with it!

 

[grebe]

I’m not comfortable with losing any amount. It happens lots, but I’m never comfortable with it!

 

[trigs]

I copied down the following from someone in the past (can't remember who posted it originally), but it seemed pretty good to me:

If you are running .25/.50 blinds for nl, I would start with something
like $2/4 limit. .25 ante (each, so if using a button ante, then $2 total),
$1 bring-in, $2 to complete. Generally you want the bring-in to be about
50-100% of the total of the antes and the bring-in about 50% of the complete.

 

[warma]

If you switch to an ante game, you need to make a full orbit of antes to make it play out correctly.

As for table ante size, I grabbed this from @BGinGA

In a 2-chip/4-chip limit 7 stud game: 1 chip as the bring-in, with a dealer-posted table ante of 4 chips (7+ players), 3 chips (5-6 players), or 2 chips (2-4 players). Fixing it at always 3 chips (regardless of table size) also works fine, imo.

 

[ArielVer18]

There’s no direct conversion because the variances in buy in and potential win rates are different between fixed limit and big bet games.

For a winning poker player, 8/16 is similar to 1/2 NL. for a break even player, 6/12 is similar to 1/2 NL. For a losing player, 5/10, maybe 5/10 with a half kill. Adding a full kill or half kill will skew these comparison.

Try a dedicated fixed limit night and see what stakes your players are comfortable playing. Mixing will get primarily NL/PL players complaining that the blinds of fixed limit games are too large and primiarily fixed limit players complaining the game is too small.

 

[FDLmold]

I multiply blinds by 5-10x for equivalent fixed limit. So $1/$2 NL PL plays like something between $5/$10 limit and $10/$20 limit.

A 100 big blind pot in 1/2 NL has a player putting in $200. That's a big pot. A similar fixed limit pot at the 5-10x multiplier has a player putting in ten-twenty big bets. Also a big pot.

 

[Papasatyr]

In limit games, I've found a 30 Big Bet buy in is enough to minimize rebuys.