Poker Coaching/Instruction (1 Viewer)

[chkmte]

I'd like to improve my game - who wouldn't? However, I'm a little leary of paying for any online content. It's not that I'm cheap, I just have a feeling that most of the available content is geared towards "online" poker. It's my opinion that there is a significant difference between online poker and live poker. That being said, I did subscribe to/enjoy PokerVT with Daniel Negreanu before it vanished.

FWIW, I often play $1/$2 NLHE in a casino poker room environment. Most of the players are either average or pretty bad. I used to play very solid hands and raise 3-4x blind, etc. ABC poker. Unfortunately, I found that style didn't really work against players of this caliber as they seemed to play whatever, whenever and it became nearly impossible to put anyone on a hand (range). So, it's a dilemema. I want to play solid poker and make the correct moves, but at the same time I'm unsure if advice from a poker pro would apply to such a bad player pool. That sounds silly, but I think it may be accurate.

Does anyone have any experience with Upswing Labs by Doug Polk? Otherwise, are there any suggestions regarding my query?

 

[Jambine]

...........It's my opinion that there is a significant difference between online poker and live poker........

Yes there is a huge difference.

You have probably already read everything that is worth reading about live poker (there is not really that much out there).
My only suggestion beyond that is to track your play religiously. Not just win/loss, but also notes on specific players, and anything extraordinary that happens

 

[Skeeter]

Daniel Negreanu has a YouTube channel now that has some great perspective, but I agree with Jambine, just track your play. Always look back and see if you could have played a hand differently, maybe utilizing a check raise as opposed to just a raise, or maybe betting a smaller amount to keep more players in the game. You can always learn, and while I think that some poker coaches are really good at their craft, they aren't you. They will never be you, thus their game will always be different. Take bits and pieces from everyone else, but you have to put in the work yourself to become the player you want to be, regardless of your competition.

 

[manamongkids]

Think Polks upswing thing is $999. Start tracking your results, (I use google sheets for myself and setup a running doc)

Start posting here and 2+2 more hand historys. Keep track of memorable hands you played over the course of the night and let people give their 2c on your play/what coulda.shoulda been done better/worse

 

[Trihonda]

I have a local crew of solid trusted players, that we call and or bounce hands off of.

 

[Mental Nomad]

I used to play very solid hands and raise 3-4x blind, etc. ABC poker. Unfortunately, I found that style didn't really work against players of this caliber as they seemed to play whatever, whenever and it became nearly impossible to put anyone on a hand (range). So, it's a dilemema. I want to play solid poker and make the correct moves, but at the same time I'm unsure if advice from a poker pro would apply to such a bad player pool. That sounds silly, but I think it may be accurate.

Solid poker still makes money against that kind of player, just not in exactly the same way it would against another ABC player who is slightly worse and slightly looser than you.

Sure, you have to put them on wider ranges, and that will increase your variance... but the variance increase on the up side as well as the down side. You need to learn to extract value while they're calling on inferior hands and draws, and improve your your sense for when to bluff at the late stages... this lets you profit off of their specific weaknesses.

People who say "I can't win because they're all over the place" are either not yet experienced at the difference between "short run" and "long run" poker, and are just reacting to short run... or else they're just not properly getting value when they're ahead. Also,you may be surprised at how much you're draining off in tips and other costs, until you start tracking.

If a good player can't take the variance of playing proper aggression against people who can show up with crazy hands (and blow off a lot of money with nonsense hands), then they may be playing too high for their bankroll... if you're hesitant to value bet against someone who's likely to chase a weak draw because "they always hit some nonsense," then you're leaving money on the table, long-term.

A good pro who's a good tutor won't be teaching you ABC poker... they'll be teaching you how best to extract value out of particular player types.

 

[chkmte]

I agree @Mental Nomad. I do a good job of extracting the most of my monster hands. I think my play used to be too predictable and now, perhaps too loose. I'll say this however, it's those random bullshit hands that I shouldn't be playing that make bank when they do hit. The folks I play with have trouble laying anything down - ever.

 

[Adam Crowley]

ABC poker is a terrible term. ABC poker is not a defined strategy and relating your play to something defined leads to the mindset that you had a strategy that did not need refining.

The best way to improve your game is to find a friend that is beating the games or even the games a few levels above and talk about your strategy with them.

I think the problem you are having is you don't know your own strategy and why you are making the decisions you are making.

If you want to get better you need to work on improving your decision making model and the only way to do that is to analyze decisions you make.

I would suggest taking notes in hand and afterwards asking your self some questions. You need to know why you made each decision and what your plan was on flops, turns and rivers. Think about each decision as part of your overall strategy and what the implications are to your image etc. Reflect on the reads that made you deviate from your strategy and if you think the information was reliable enough to deviate from your core strategy.

It will take a long time to get a really good foundation but the upside is you will learn more about your game. What the strengths and weaknesses are of the decisions you make. You will be able to spot mistakes in your opponents strategy because you will have learnt them yourself and proven definitively why they are a mistake, and most likely you will have a good idea on the best counter strategy to those mistakes. Then you can work on adapting your strategy. The good news is that at $1/$2 everyone makes so many mistakes that all of this work will start paying off before you even understand how and why your making money of these seemingly minor adjustments to your game.

 

[chkmte]

I'd ask my friends for advice if I had any @Adam Crowley.

 

[Adam Crowley]

I'd ask my friends for advice if I had any @Adam Crowley.

That's a sad reply. If you play long enough you will probably make some friends from the tables.

That was only the best way. Because you have someone who knows the games and players that can give accurate and relevant feedback on your decisons.

There are some pretty sharp people on here a few of them seem to be able to beat NL200 at the casino, you can defiantly post hands in the strategy thread. To really evolve your game you need to start thinking about your strategy as a whole rather then hand by hand, so more independent discussion can be had.

 

[chkmte]

Think Polks upswing thing is $999. Start tracking your results, (I use google sheets for myself and setup a running doc)

Start posting here and 2+2 more hand historys. Keep track of memorable hands you played over the course of the night and let people give their 2c on your play/what coulda.shoulda been done better/worse

$99/1st month, $49 thereafter

 

[Rhodeman77]

Redchippoker.com has a crash course for $1/2 NL that is $40 and seems to be decent. Someone here is using it and says it is helping. One of the coaches is on Live at the Bike a lot.

I have found watching a lot of the live broadcasts like Live at the Bike and Poker Night in America along with YouTube videos of people like Doug Polk and the Vbloggers on there have helped my game a lot. I have really worked on constructing ranges better and using card removal to do so.

So if you don't want to drop a shit ton of money as an occasional rec player there are plenty of resources out there that are free or very affordable.

 

[kk405]

I have never hired a coach, but I wish I did ten years ago. If you have a few friends who are very good players, they can act as your coach as well. I have found an important way to learn (besides the constant studying) is to talk about hands with good/better players.

As others mentioned, log in your win/losses religiously. Also remember or write down big pots and important hands so you can rehash and go over them again, even if it's by yourself. Be critical, but be honest.

And my last advice is to always play within your bankroll (with sporadic and occasional shots at bigger games). I truly believe bankroll management and playing the right games is the most important ingredient for a long-term successful player. We can all learn the theory and/or pretty much know what to do in a lot of spots. What can't be taught is bankroll management and human emotion involved. This is the demon that has brought down the best of the best, so conquering this is much easier said than done.

 

[duecesneverloses]

I joined upswing poker at the beggining if this year. The monthly fee is 27 bucks and well worth it IMO. I play a bit online to study and practice and play live 1,2nlhe or 2,2 plo. Upswing is a good system because it basically a crash course for playong solid fundamentals. Goes through videos with Doug polk and Ryan Fees detailing how to approach most spots from a theoretical strategy. Also have Online and a few live play and explains. I also think too many people playing lowest stakes in a casino have no clue of their overall strategy and so trying to understand their thought proccess and assign them a range is futile to a large degree. They dont know how they play their whole range so you cant deduce much.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I was a poker coach for several years. I've made around 100 videos online for sites like pokerstrategy.com & stoxpoker/cardrunners, and regularly did private coaching as well (and no, I don't offer private coaching anymore). However, if you're curious, you can still find my videos there under the same screen name: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video...pe=0&table_size=0&language[]=en&submit=Search

My advice: bury yourself in the 2+2 forums first. Watch all free content strategy videos and hand breakdowns by good winning cash players like Doug Polk who break down hands and provide multiple options/betting lines for each spot, but avoid listening to advice from guys like Negreanu. Don't get me wrong, Negreanu is a phenomenal player (I've played with him several times), but he's not the best game theorist out there. He's more of a read/feel type of player (and he's one of the best at it). More importantly however, he's also more of a tournament player, and MTTs are completely different from cash games. If you want to beat cash games, listen to cash game pros. If you want to beat MTTs, listen to tournament pros (and you might as well buy a lottery ticket while you're at it). Either way, avoid taking any advice from anyone on any platform who only ever offers one answer as the "solution" to a "what should I do here?" scenario. Most of the time, you should be mixing up your play with different betting lines. Only in certain spots is there truly just one "correct" play.

Private coaching is extremely expensive (I used to charge $200 per hour, and made $500 per video for those sites) and it usually isn't worth your time unless you're already capable of playing for a living and are looking to move up in stakes. It's not worth paying for private coaching if you're still playing $1/$2 NL. There are plenty of free resources available for you to be able to learn how to beat those games. However, if you do want to pay for "coaching", then your best bet is to sign up for a training site like one of the ones I mentioned above (and no, I don't get paid if you sign up there). Watching the pros play while they talk through hands is extremely informative, and can fast track your learning curve. However, it can also fuck up your game if you're not on their level yet. You need to make sure you understand why they're making the plays they're making before you start to incorporate them into your own game. This is why I suggested first sticking with the 2+2 forums. Be sure to figure out who is worth paying attention to around there first though. Otherwise you'll just be listening to a bunch of donks and developing bad habits. As your game improves, you can start adding in more starting hands from each spot, making you more difficult to play against. But don't play too many hands right out of the gate if you're not beating the game yet. Learn to beat the game first, then slowly begin to open up your ranges.

The primary difference between online poker and live poker is that online players are much better. But that's about it. A $1/$2 NL live game might play more like a 25¢/50¢ online game, but the strategies you employ in both environments shouldn't change much unless you're able to exploit specific weaknesses in live play that you otherwise wouldn't be able to online - this opportunity certainly presents itself often, but you need to gain some experience before you're likely to be able to take advantage of those situations first.

Good luck on the tables!

Sincerely,
The "Blow Hard"

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

Crush Live Poker is geared towards live low stakes.

 

[Anthony Martino]

FWIW, I often play $1/$2 NLHE in a casino poker room environment. Most of the players are either average or pretty bad. I used to play very solid hands and raise 3-4x blind, etc. ABC poker. Unfortunately, I found that style didn't really work against players of this caliber as they seemed to play whatever, whenever and it became nearly impossible to put anyone on a hand (range).

Then perhaps you aren't paying enough attention. When you've sat at a table long enough you should have an idea of who is playing too many hands, calling too many raises, playing too many pots out of position, who is aggressive, passive, calling stations, etc. Betting tells, positional tells, etc. should all be there.

It may be that you're trying too hard to pay attention to everyone all at once, and the noise from that can be distracting and interfere with your ability to process it all. Maybe focus on one opponent at a time and learn them, get comfortable with what you believe of their playstyle and then focus on the next player.

You should know who you can take to value town, who bets small to try and control the price of their drawing hands (and will still call your large raises trying to chase those draws even when the odds don't dictate it), etc.

Low stakes live NL Hold em you shouldn't need to get too fancy, just adjust to specific opponents, focus on playing in position and in pots against the weaker players.

As far as the 3-4x the blind raise, oftentimes in live cash games you will find you're getting 4+ callers in spots where you raise that amount, when you have a hand that you really need to narrow the field down to 1-2 opponents. If so, you'll need to adjust your raise sizes to accomplish that, it can differ from table to table and opponent to opponent. And yes, sometimes every motherfucker limps in for $2 and then calls a raise to $20 because they are imagining that dream flop their smashes which nets them a big pot, lol.

Most players in live NL don't bluff nearly as much as people think they do, you should over time get a sixth sense for what most bets mean if you're paying attention to your specific opponents.

So, it's a dilemema. I want to play solid poker and make the correct moves, but at the same time I'm unsure if advice from a poker pro would apply to such a bad player pool. That sounds silly, but I think it may be accurate.

Try to play some hands completely blind. Don't look at your cards. Without knowing your own hand, it can't distract you from paying attention to your opponents. Their reactions to the flop, to your bets, etc. Cut out that noise a few times and laser focus on watching your opponents and you will find tells, whether they're physical or betting.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I was a poker coach for several years. I've made around 100 videos online for sites like pokerstrategy.com & stoxpoker/cardrunners, and regularly did private coaching as well (and no, I don't offer private coaching anymore). However, if you're curious, you can still find my videos there under the same screen name: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/?query=rainmantrail&content_type=0&game_type=0&table_size=0&language[]=en&submit=Search

My advice: bury yourself in the 2+2 forums first. Watch all free content strategy videos and hand breakdowns by good winning cash players like Doug Polk who break down hands and provide multiple options/betting lines for each spot, but avoid listening to advice from guys like Negreanu. Don't get me wrong, Negreanu is a phenomenal player (I've played with him several times), but he's not the best game theorist out there. He's more of a read/feel type of player (and he's one of the best at it). More importantly however, he's also more of a tournament player, and MTTs are completely different from cash games. If you want to beat cash games, listen to cash game pros. If you want to beat MTTs, listen to tournament pros (and you might as well buy a lottery ticket while you're at it). Either way, avoid taking any advice from anyone on any platform who only ever offers one answer as the "solution" to a "what should I do here?" scenario. Most of the time, you should be mixing up your play with different betting lines. Only in certain spots is there truly just one "correct" play.

Private coaching is extremely expensive (I used to charge $200 per hour, and made $500 per video for those sites) and it usually isn't worth your time unless you're already capable of playing for a living and are looking to move up in stakes. It's not worth paying for private coaching if you're still playing $1/$2 NL. There are plenty of free resources available for you to be able to learn how to beat those games. However, if you do want to pay for "coaching", then your best bet is to sign up for a training site like one of the ones I mentioned above (and no, I don't get paid if you sign up there). Watching the pros play while they talk through hands is extremely informative, and can fast track your learning curve. However, it can also fuck up your game if you're not on their level yet. You need to make sure you understand why they're making the plays they're making before you start to incorporate them into your own game. This is why I suggested first sticking with the 2+2 forums. Be sure to figure out who is worth paying attention to around there first though. Otherwise you'll just be listening to a bunch of donks and developing bad habits. As your game improves, you can start adding in more starting hands from each spot, making you more difficult to play against. But don't play too many hands right out of the gate if you're not beating the game yet. Learn to beat the game first, then slowly begin to open up your ranges.

The primary difference between online poker and live poker is that online players are much better. But that's about it. A $1/$2 NL live game might play more like a 25¢/50¢ online game, but the strategies you employ in both environments shouldn't change much unless you're able to exploit specific weaknesses in live play that you otherwise wouldn't be able to online - this opportunity certainly presents itself often, but you need to gain some experience before you're likely to be able to take advantage of those situations first.

Good luck on the tables!

Sincerely,
The "Blow Hard"

I agree with most of this except one key thing: you do not need to mix up your game in 1/2 at the casino. No one is paying enough attention for that to matter.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I agree with most of this except one key thing: you do not need to mix up your game in 1/2 at the casino. No one is paying enough attention for that to matter.

Generally speaking this is correct. Although I played a 1/2 game at Mohegan where multiple players were letting go of QQ preflop to 3-bets (and they were correct). Of course, when you're at a table like that, move to a better table

But yeah, usually the players in the lower stakes games aren't thinking on multiple levels, aren't capable of viewing your actions as different from how they would play a hand (i.e. they project, or mirror their own playstyle onto their opponents)

Low stakes NL Hold Em is more about getting value in spots against players who go too far with medium strength hands than in outplaying opponents with fancy plays.

 

[pedrofisk]

You can also check out "Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Cash Games Paperback" by Jonathan Little. It is exactly about the situation you describe in the OP. https://smile.amazon.com/Strategies...3602944&sr=8-1&keywords=jonathan+little+poker

 

[RainmanTrail]

I agree with most of this except one key thing: you do not need to mix up your game in 1/2 at the casino. No one is paying enough attention for that to matter.

Generally speaking this is correct. Although I played a 1/2 game at Mohegan where multiple players were letting go of QQ preflop to 3-bets (and they were correct). Of course, when you're at a table like that, move to a better table

But yeah, usually the players in the lower stakes games aren't thinking on multiple levels, aren't capable of viewing your actions as different from how they would play a hand (i.e. they project, or mirror their own playstyle onto their opponents)

Low stakes NL Hold Em is more about getting value in spots against players who go too far with medium strength hands than in outplaying opponents with fancy plays.

Perhaps "needing" to mix up one's game is a strong term, but you'll certainly benefit from doing so. Can you beat $1/$2 NL without it? Sure. But if you ever want to move up stakes or increase your hourly rate, it's certainly worth doing. There are probably other things you should learn first though. It all depends on where you're at skill-wise and experience-wise.

 

[bergs]

Generally speaking this is correct. Although I played a 1/2 game at Mohegan where multiple players were letting go of QQ preflop to 3-bets (and they were correct). Of course, when you're at a table like that, move to a better table

But yeah, usually the players in the lower stakes games aren't thinking on multiple levels, aren't capable of viewing your actions as different from how they would play a hand (i.e. they project, or mirror their own playstyle onto their opponents)

Low stakes NL Hold Em is more about getting value in spots against players who go too far with medium strength hands than in outplaying opponents with fancy plays.

Low stakes NLHE players (at least the ones I see when I played more frequently in 2014-2015 at Foxwoods and Mohegan) will fold QQ and worse to a 3-bet pre, but play fairly badly post-flop. I've always found 2/5 easier than 1/2 because 2/5 players seem to be more predictable (you get more monkeys flinging poo at 1/2).

 

[Chicken Rob]

Low stakes NLHE players (at least the ones I see when I played more frequently in 2014-2015 at Foxwoods and Mohegan) will fold QQ and worse to a 3-bet pre, but play fairly badly post-flop. I've always found 2/5 easier than 1/2 because 2/5 players seem to be more predictable (you get more monkeys flinging poo at 1/2).

I can beat both 1/2 and 2/5 at most casinos I've ever played at. I think I'd be crushed at 5/10.

I don't need to mix up my game for deception at 1/2. Ever. It's pretty easy to make a hand and bet for value, or out play the few weak tight guys if you're in position.

I am not a great 2/5 player. I don't have the number of hours at 2/5 to have as strong a read on this player pool. Mixing up my game might be important here if I were a reg, but it's enough to play positional tag and occasionally exploit your image. I'll admit, my earn rate here is sub-optimal.

Berg, your only problem in 1/2 is you think you can make people fold way more than is possible.

 

[chkmte]

Berg, your only problem in 1/2 is you think you can make people fold way more than is possible.

I've had above-average success in an underground, weekly tournament structure with the same players. My biggest mistake was trying to transfer that strategy over into a casino in a cash game. I would stone-bluff when appropriate (flush card on 5th street, etc) but my opponents would call with nothing hands. I don't believe it was because they "read" me as weak, rather they were playing their cards and their cards only. I'm not even sure they realized the river card made a flush, for example.

So yeah, I agree with a lot of what has been posted here.

Here's a quirky question for everyone here... Is it possible for something to be mathematically accurate but theoretically wrong at the same time? I'm thinking so. For example, the starting hand chart can be broken down into +/- EV. However, I am absolutely certain that my biggest pots and most profit has come from bullshit, -EV hands. I used to be a math nut when it came to cards - but I finally realized (after getting my nuts crushed) that it's not all about math. Deception and unpredictability have become my greatest assets.

Perhaps I'm looking for a little affirmation here.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I've had above-average success in an underground, weekly tournament structure with the same players. My biggest mistake was trying to transfer that strategy over into a casino in a cash game. I would stone-bluff when appropriate (flush card on 5th street, etc) but my opponents would call with nothing hands. I don't believe it was because they "read" me as weak, rather they were playing their cards and their cards only. I'm not even sure they realized the river card made a flush, for example.

So yeah, I agree with a lot of what has been posted here.

Here's a quirky question for everyone here... Is it possible for something to be mathematically accurate but theoretically wrong at the same time? I'm thinking so. For example, the starting hand chart can be broken down into +/- EV. However, I am absolutely certain that my biggest pots and most profit has come from bullshit, -EV hands. I used to be a math nut when it came to cards - but I finally realized (after getting my nuts crushed) that it's not all about math. Deception and unpredictability have become my greatest assets.

Perhaps I'm looking for a little affirmation here.

I think this book does a good job of talking about the math of playing junk cards profitably. I'll bet what you're currently thinking is -EV in the long run without some additional considerations.

https://www.amazon.com/Small-Stakes-No-Limit-Holdem-Miller/dp/0984143491

 

[DrStrange]

Math is always your friend. Really.

No doubt you remember that night when 92s took down the $2,000 pot. It was one of your biggest wins, everyone was in awe of your poker skills and it was super fun. What you forgot was the myriad of times your two junk cards when up in flames after the flop and the occasional time your bottom two pair or baby flush cost you your stack.

If you tracked your results by hand played, you would see that 92s is the best hand in your history with a +70BB per time played. All due to that one time when you won a 1,000BB pot and the fact you don't often play 92s. It might be tempting to think 92s is a "monster" based this single event, but we can figure that isn't the case with a bit of thought and analysis.

There must be a hundred junk hands. Each of us has a couple of these types of hands they remember fondly due to a couple of great results. But that doesn't make those few hands "good". It means when you get to swing a hundred times, you get a couple of hits even with your eyes closed.

Some people have a favorite junk hand they use for bluffing - and in truth that can work out quite well. Treat 74o like it was aces and as a bonus, you find it a lot easier to properly fold 74o than pocket aces. That doesn't make 74o > AA but you might find value in a structure to add air to your preflop raise range.

It is not easy to make proper use of math to guide your decision making. I got paid $400 / hr to do exactly this in my consulting practice. It is super easy to take a few facts, misapply the math and reach the wrong conclusions. More so when folks want to prove the desired conclusions and seek out data to create that proof. Poker player are the same way.

Yes it is true that there is way more to poker than math. As noted, deception is critical as are people skills, self discipline and a host of other factors. Yet if you find yourself fighting math, you will eventually find yourself on the losing side unless your other poker skills completely dominate the other players.

Math IS your friend. Trust it -=- DrStrange

 

[Adam Crowley]

it's not possible to be mathematically correct and (over all) minus ev at the same time. It is however possible to get the math wrong by using the wrong inputs, such as opponents frequencies with certain hands. Especially in a live game

 

[chkmte]

it's not possible to be mathematically correct and (over all) minus ev at the same time. It is however possible to get the math wrong by using the wrong inputs, such as opponents frequencies with certain hands. Especially in a live game

Well, I'm not one to disagree with math - definitely. However, I'm not certain any of us can accuarately predict implied odds because every opponent is different than the last. That's all I'm suggesting.