colter ripton
Full House
I probably call..... I think if he had an ace he keeps betting. Also the 5 is a good card because it counterfeits the 98. I dont know it's kind of a close spot, but absent a read I probably call.
PAHWM: $2/$5 Pocket K's. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Payback
- Start date
Call.
That card doesn’t help him at all, which only means that card isn’t super likely to put him ahead of you IF he was behind. Would he be check raise with 5x, not too likely at all imo.
Don’t love the spot but I definitely call. His turn check is strong imo. He should know the A is a blank for you (even a bad card). So he’ll be checking all his good values on the turn imo.
That card doesn’t help him at all, which only means that card isn’t super likely to put him ahead of you IF he was behind. Would he be check raise with 5x, not too likely at all imo.
Don’t love the spot but I definitely call. His turn check is strong imo. He should know the A is a blank for you (even a bad card). So he’ll be checking all his good values on the turn imo.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
The more I think of it, I think you very well might be beat here (either a boat xx full of fives, fives full of aces or quads) but I’d make the call.
Yuk. Pretty brutal run-out, even though it opens up a lot of Villain bluffs. Would he shove here having hit a set on the flop? Probably not. Not likely to shove with two pair, either, especially if he hit the turn Ace. I'm also in the camp that he planned on check-raising the turn, and you didn't play along.Turn ($632):
Villian checks, Hero checks
River ($632):
Villian shoves for $445, Hero XXX
I'm calling. Feels more like a semi-bluff (TT-JJ-QQ) or a missed draw than a hand that beats us. He won't be expecting Kings.
OP
OP
Ultimately the reason I post this was to see what type of ranging people were assigning to Villian in the hand at various points throughout the hand so thanks so far to those of you that have taken the time to respond at all and provide feedback. Keep the discussion coming!
He can certainly be beat, but there’s also a chance he might not be. The A was not good but the 5 was great imo. As I said, I’m not first pumping calling but I’m calling nonetheless.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
Fair enough. I think we have to call here, but I’m not loving it. But given the little we know about villain, the hands I think he might have definitely wouldn’t surprise me.
This is literally a snap call.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Here's the thing, how many ax hands is he really check-raising on the flop? Is he really 7xing anything pre that's a flop 2 pair?
A-A is starting to make sense here. (Provided he could flat pre instead of going for 4 bets?), 9-9 is my chief suspect here though. The bluffs I can come up with are Tt-Qq if he would really pull the trigger on the river. He may be capping your range at kk with the turn check thinking you can't call a shove. If you think he's capable of that, then you call. Otherwise I think it's a fold as a default.
A-A is starting to make sense here. (Provided he could flat pre instead of going for 4 bets?), 9-9 is my chief suspect here though. The bluffs I can come up with are Tt-Qq if he would really pull the trigger on the river. He may be capping your range at kk with the turn check thinking you can't call a shove. If you think he's capable of that, then you call. Otherwise I think it's a fold as a default.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Problem is we have kd and ad is on board, so unless he's raising like qd-jd he didn't miss a flush. How many utg opening hands miss draws?
Of mine? Not many, if any. This villain? A bunch. He literally could have anything, like JT, QT, QJ:
I wouldn't even be surprised if Bill calls and he mucks.
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JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
So based on one orbit we could assume a 30-35% raising range. I guess to me if we put the hands that miss straights in villian's range we also have to put the flopped straight in there as well.
There may be a few more 9s he can turn into bluffs I suppose. But if we are putting T9 and J9 in his range we probably put A9 in there too, which sucks.
I hate making this decision on one orbit of data, which is why I think it's close. I lean fold unless there's a lot of hands he can turn into bluffs, but of he can have a lot of those hands, he can also have the hands that flopped a joint or made aces up.
There may be a few more 9s he can turn into bluffs I suppose. But if we are putting T9 and J9 in his range we probably put A9 in there too, which sucks.
I hate making this decision on one orbit of data, which is why I think it's close. I lean fold unless there's a lot of hands he can turn into bluffs, but of he can have a lot of those hands, he can also have the hands that flopped a joint or made aces up.
OP
OP
Another thing I was looking for feedback here regarding constructing range is if we are holding TT, JJ, QQ here how does this impact this hand?
Those who said call on the flop, would you change your line or are you still calling? Those saying call river are you still doing that with TT, JJ or QQ?
Those who said call on the flop, would you change your line or are you still calling? Those saying call river are you still doing that with TT, JJ or QQ?
For me, yes, it would change a little the way I look at the situation. Two reason: first, those pairs seat a little lower on my cbet/call range. They might still be a call on the flop but they might be on the call flop/fold turn or river range. Just speaking for a calling frequency perspective. Second, some of those hands don’t beat some of Villains possible check/raise range, they might be one pair lower than Villain’s. I haven’t done a real calc on combos but that’s the gist of what I’d be thinking about.
I fold. If he is a thinking player at all then the way he is playing this hand is terrible as a bluff. Your hand is basically a bluff catcher at this point. I also don’t think you can make any real assumptions about him based off of one orbit so he is essentially an unknown. The flop hits his range pretty hard and it wouldn’t make sense for him to shove with 1010-QQ on the river because those hands won’t really get called by worse and they have showdown value. His only bluffs are missed straights but why wouldn’t he barrel them on the turn? All the signs point to a value hand here and any value hand on this river has you beat.
OP
OP
I'll let the day crowd weigh in tomorrow and post the results tomorrow night if things slow down.
OP
OP
No flush draw is on flop.
Steve Birrer
Two Pair
I already folded at the turn so I don't count. But if I was still in the hand not wasting another $445. Fold.
Coming from a mildly experienced and elementarily educated player like myself (so, for whatever that is worth), that's how I would have probably played my pocket 5s in villain's shoes. And I could have played so only with pocket 5s.
Genuine question, not trying to question your line with 55 at all: Why would you check/raise a set on a board that probably missed Hero's pre flop 3-bet range completely, even for draws? Yes, you might get value from exactly big pocket pairs (some are even arguing folding KK on the flop, so maybe not even value from big pairs), but that's it. Interested in your reasoning...
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Jimulacrum
Full House
I'm also kinda curious as to why this line happens only with 55, and not with 88, 99, or any other hands.
Seems a little funny to specifically put Villain on the case nut hand at this point. Sounds a lot like seeing monsters under the bed. Building up a pot that's bigger than your stack and then abandoning it to this kind of fear is a recipe to lose a lot of money.
Not saying Villain can't have 55, of course. It's part of his range. But it's only one hand in his range that can happen exactly one way.
It is a little more likely here because we're in a thread about this hand, though.
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JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
How did you fold a check-check turn?
A check raise is good here with a set because it keeps your bluff range balanced. Check/raising with a set allows you to also check/raise with bluffs. If your plan would be to never bluff this flop then you are never raising it for value either.
I think, maybe wrongly so, that check-raising with a set there might yield either value or information and probably value.
Of course, we don't know if this villain is as amateurish as myself
colter ripton
Full House
How come everyone on here sounds like Doug Polk now?
Sometimes you have to just decide if the guy is full of shit or not and go with your gut.
Sometimes you have to just decide if the guy is full of shit or not and go with your gut.
Totally understand that, and it's fair enough... I would personally pick other value hands to balance my range there, like some 2P combos and even sneaky big pairs that flatted the flop. Again, if there is suggestion that Hero should fold all his big pairs on the flop, how balanced one should really be?
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