Tourney Need Help w/ League Championship Structure (Deepstack) (1 Viewer)

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My championship game is scheduled (2) weeks from now and I need to nail down the structure.

I am calculating starting stacks using a chips per league points calculation, based on a 50k average stack. Stack sizes are flexible, I have enough chips to cover up to an average stack of 250k.

I have maximum 15 players eligible to play and I'm aiming for a deepstack lengthy tournament experience where we will break for dinner. I'm thinking 30 minute levels, and I also want an ante (BB ante) to come into play at an appropriate level. I would like to use T100 as the base, as I think my chipset best supports that (25k is the highest denom).

Can anyone recommend a good structure for this situation? What level should antes come into play?

Here are the starting stacks calculated based on a 50k average:
1578250897813.png


Thanks for your help!
 
I'm aiming for a deepstack lengthy tournament experience where we will break for dinner.
Including the dinner break and all color-up breaks, what duration are you aiming at? Also, how long is the dinner break and how long color-up breaks do you want?
With 30 minute levels, I'm guessing you want breaks when chips aren't colored up as well?

I also want an ante (BB ante) [...] What level should antes come into play?
I prefer having them from level 1, but you can add them at any level. When adding antes, you usually repeat the BB/SB from the previous level.

With individual antes, the antes are usually added when the BB is high enough that the lowest chip in play is a reasonable sized ante. Or in other words: when the chips support an ante. With this logic you might as well have the BB ante from level 1, IMO.

Example blinds below, 250 BB stacks, should end around level 15 or 16 when there's ~30 BBs in play, which would be 8 hours excluding breaks. BB ante from level 1 is implied.

100 200
100 300
200 400
300 600
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
Color up T100
1k 2k
1.5k 3k
Color up T500
2k 4k
3k 6k
4k 8k
6k 12k
8k 16k
Color up T1000
10k 20k
15k 30k (should end around here)
20k 40k
etc

You can save time by reducing the level time for the last levels when there are only a few left. This also reduces the variance in tournament duration.
 
When you say "lengthy".... what exactly do you mean?

"Lengthy" to you & 'lengthy" to someone else can be quite a ways apart.

A local tourney actually starts with 50k stacks, uses a structure similar to what was just posted above, & usually ends with a deal being struck at the 8k/16k or 10k/20k level if it only starts with 2 tables. (16-18 players) Which is pretty close to what you're talking about.
 
Including the dinner break and all color-up breaks, what duration are you aiming at? Also, how long is the dinner break and how long color-up breaks do you want?
With 30 minute levels, I'm guessing you want breaks when chips aren't colored up as well?


You can save time by reducing the level time for the last levels when there are only a few left. This also reduces the variance in tournament duration.
When you say "lengthy".... what exactly do you mean?

"Lengthy" to you & 'lengthy" to someone else can be quite a ways apart.

A local tourney actually starts with 50k stacks, uses a structure similar to what was just posted above, & usually ends with a deal being struck at the 8k/16k or 10k/20k level if it only starts with 2 tables. (16-18 players) Which is pretty close to what you're talking about.

Thanks, good questions.

I'm aiming for an 8-10 hour experience INCLUDING breaks. We would probably break 45-60 minutes for dinner and have a 10-15 minute bathroom break about every 90 minutes.
 
I'm aiming for an 8-10 hour experience INCLUDING breaks. We would probably break 45-60 minutes for dinner and have a 10-15 minute bathroom break about every 90 minutes.

I removed the BG level which means the blinds double to level 2. Since the levels are 30 min I don't think this is too bad, although it will make the structure less deep. I did this to 1) have max 90 between breaks and 2) reduced the tourney time since it was cutting it close to 10h.

100 200
200 400
300 600
Break
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
Break and color up T100
1k 2k
1.5k 3k
Break and color up T500
2k 4k
3k 6k
4k 8k
Break
6k 12k
8k 16k
Break and color up T1000
10k 20k
15k 30k (should end no later than here)
20k 40k
etc

5 breaks of which one is for dinner. Total break time 85 to 120 minutes depending on the break lengths. ~7.5h of poker leads to a total of ~9-9.5h. You can reduce this by reducing the lengths of the later levels. If you want a deeper structure you need shorter levels or a steeper blinds progression. Or man up and skip the breaks! ;) J.k.
 
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I removed the BG level which means the blinds double to level 2. Since the levels are 30 min I don't think this is too bad, although it will make the structure less deep. I did this to 1) have max 90 between breaks and 2) reduced the tourney time since it was cutting it close to 10h.

100 200
200 400
300 600
Break
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
Break and color up T100
1k 2k
1.5k 3k
Break and color up T500
2k 4k
3k 6k
4k 8k
Break
6k 12k
8k 16k
Break and color up T1000
10k 20k
15k 30k (should end around here)
20k 40k
etc

5 breaks of which one is for dinner. Total break time 85 to 120 minutes depending on the break lengths. ~7.5h of poker leads to a total of ~9-9.5h. You can reduce this by reducing the lengths of the later levels. If you want a deeper structure you need shorter levels or a steeper blinds progression. Or man up and skip the breaks! ;) J.k.

Looks like a good structure to me. Thanks for the help.

Do you have a good way to estimate when the tourney will end? Isn't it some calculation of number of big blinds in play?
 
15k 30k (should end around here)

Perhaps you didn't notice the above? :D

Most here will cite when the BB = 5% of the chips in play. Which, is close to what's stated here if you do the math.

750,000 / 20 = 37,500

In my experience, this is actually a bit longer than typical. It's more like the longest it would take if you have a final two that fight it out to the bitter end & don't mind basically ending up flipping coins for the top prize.

If you do actually get that far & they have roughly equal stacks, then they each have only 10 big blinds. You're not really playing much poker at that point, especially head's up.

I've found it's more likely to end by the time the total of the blinds & antes equals 5% of the chips in play. Which, with most structures is 2-4 levels sooner.

If you're using a BB ante, that would put it somewhere around the 8k/16k level. Give or take a level.
 
I do not believe antes are necessary in two table tournaments. You can accomplish the same thing (put pressure on the small stacks) by shortening the levels to 25 minutes.

100 200
100 300
200 400
15 minute break
300 600
400 800
500 1000
15 minute break (Color up T100)
500 1500 or 1k 1500
1k 2k
1.5k 3k
45 minute Dinner break (Color up T500)
2k 4k
3k 6k
4k 8k
10 minute break (Color up T1000)
Play to completion
5k 10k
5k 15k or 10k 15k
10k 20k
15k 30k
20k 40k

The tournament should finish in under 9.5 hours.
 
maximum 15 players eligible to play and I'm aiming for a deepstack lengthy tournament experience where we will break for dinner. I'm thinking 30 minute levels, and I also want an ante (BB ante) to come into play at an appropriate level. I would like to use T100 as the base

I'm aiming for an 8-10 hour experience INCLUDING breaks. We would probably break 45-60 minutes for dinner and have a 10-15 minute bathroom break about every 90 minutes.
For 15 players with 14k-83k stacks (averaging 50K, or 250BB), I'd use the following structure with 30 minute levels, 15-minute breaks every three levels, and a 60-minute dinner break at the mid-point. With a BBA equal to the Big Blind amount posted on every hand (beginning with L1), it should run no later than L17, which is 10.5 hours including breaks. The likely end-point will be two-three levels earlier, or roughly 9 to 9.5 hours total.

All blind increases (except two @ 25%) are either 33% or 50%, averaging 40% over the course of the event.

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 100 300
L3 200 400
== 15-minute break ==
L4 300 600
L5 400 800
L6 600 1200
== 15-minute break ==
L7 800 1600
L8 1000 2000
L9 1500 3000
== remove T100/T500 chips ==
== 60-minute dinner break ==
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 4000 8000
== 15-minute break ==
L13 6000 12000
L14 8000 16000
L15 12000 24000
== remove T1000 chips ==
== 15-minute break ==
L16 15000 30000
L17 20000 40000 ** EOT **
L18 30000 60000
L19 40000 80000

I'd use at least 10/6/10/x starting stacks, filling out the larger stacks with T5000 chips. Use T25000 chips for all color-ups.

You'll need:
150 x T100
90 x T500
150 x T1000
110 x T5000
10 x T25000
 
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Added the T1000 color-up (mistakenly omitted) to the above schedule.

I'd also round up those starting stacks to the nearest T500 (100, 200, 600, 700 rounded down, 300, 400, 800, 900 rounded up). No need for the extra T100s on the table to start.
 
Added the T1000 color-up (mistakenly omitted) to the above schedule.

I'd also round up those starting stacks to the nearest T500. No need for the extra T100s on the table to start.

Good idea. Thanks for the help BG!
 
Do you have a good way to estimate when the tourney will end? Isn't it some calculation of number of big blinds in play?

There is no perfect way. Your tournament can theoretically end in the second hand (all in for all players on both tables on the first hand, followed by an all in by the survivors on the second), and it can also go on forever. The most extreme I have had is that a 5h (effective poker time) MTT with ~20 players and BB antes ended with 6.7 BBs left!! Crazy, as these usually end with 30-50.

@Dix gave a good theoretical explanation. In my experience, anteless tournaments usually end with 20 or more BBs, and 30 or more with antes.

The duration matters as well. With all else being equal, a longer tournament will usually end with more BBs in play. Just look at the main event with there super slow progression and 2h levels, they hardly use the "20 BBs rule". ;)

Edit: with this in mind, I have changed "should end around here" to "should end no later than here" in my structure above given the length of the tournament.
 
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I had a look at @BGinGA's structure. It brings up an interesting "choose your OCD poison" dilemma:

T100 are not needed for L8 and L9 but are kept in play to have them colored of with the T500. This would hurt my OCD, so I would solve it by changing L9 to 1200/2400. Then T100 and T500 lose their reason to exist simultaneously. However, the jump to 2000/4000 then becomes very large, which would also tickle my OCD. So which is better? That's up to the host, but personally I would go with 1200/2400 since it adds the benefit of playing deeper during L9. (This added deepness comes at a cost, though, since less players are likely to be eliminated during that level, so you might end up playing shallower on L10)

Still regarding BG's structure, I've never been a fan of blind increases beeing lower than previous increases, which is the case in the L15->16 jump. I would change L15 to 10k/20k. But wouldn't that require moving the break? I'd say no. The previous level (L14) was played for 30 minutes with less than 50 BBs in play. If the tourney hasn't ended, I would guess there's at most 3 players left. Just take an informal 5 minute break after L14 and color of the T1000. IMO of course.
 
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I had a look at @BGinGA's structure. It brings up an interesting "choose your OCD posion" dilemma:

T100 are not needed for L8 and L9 but are kept in play to have them colored of with the T500. This would hurt my OCD, so I would solve it by changing L9 to 1200/2400. Then T100 and T500 lose their reason to exist simultaneously. However, the jump to 2000/4000 then becomes very large, which would also tickle my OCD. So which is better? That's up to the host, but personally I would go with 1200/2400 since it adds the benefit of playing deeper during L9. (This added deepness comes as a cost, though, since less players are likely to be eliminated during that level, so you might end up playing shallower on L10)

Still regarding BG's structure, I've never been a fan of blind increases beeing lower than previous increases, which is the case in the L15->16 jump. I would change L15 to 10k/20k. But wouldn't that require moving the break? I'd say no. The previous level (L14) was played for 30 minutes with less than 50 BBs in play. If the tourney hasn't ended, I would guess there's at most 3 players left. Just take an informal 5 minute break after L14 and color of the T1000. IMO of course.
Imo, regarding the first issue, a better solution is to change L8 to 1200/2400 and keeping the break as-is. T100 chips are only kept in play for one extra level (live with it, Mr. OCD), and the progression is not significantly altered.

Regarding the latter, with a BBA, the tournament will probably never reach L16, so changing L15 to 10k/20k allows heads-up and three-handed play to color-up the T1000 chips 30 minutes earlier. Probably a better approach even without antes.

The only way to avoid a physical blinds increase smaller than a previous one (necessary when blinds are 'reset' with a 25% increase) is to keep the lower x00 (or x000) denomination chips in play for far too long.
 
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The only way to avoid a physical blinds increase smaller than a previous one (necessary when blinds are 'reset' with a 25% increase) is to keep the lower x00 (or x000) denomination chips in play for far too long.
I don't agree, but I might be misunderstanding. By resetting, do you mean from 1200/2400 to 1500/3000?
If so, you can reset from 800/1600 to 1000/2000 instead. In my opinion,
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
is better than
800/1600
1200/2400
1500/3000

With the one above, an increase is never smaller than a previous. Also, the middle level is a bit deeper :)
 
Quite a few good suggestions above, I'll add mine :p
I'd suggest not doing a straight points to chip conversion since there is a really wide spread. If you do a base stack of 30,000 and 200/point on top, you get last place at ~100BB and first at ~250BB (assuming starting at 200/400/400), which is a nice spread across a "standard" start stack and a deep stack. This doesn't increase average a huge amount, ~72K.
I'd advise the attached image for blind structure. Tourney should end around the 9 hr mark.
BLs.PNG
 
Call me a simpleton but our league just follows the WSOP Structure with the exception that we play 20 minute levels. It has worked out really good for us.

5CCD3FEA-D988-47F9-BB0B-873B0EBABF37.jpeg
 
Also everyone in our 20 member league really likes the BB Ante structure. Definitely speeds up the game as far as collecting the ante and the overall structure seems to be quicker.
 
Call me a simpleton but our league just follows the WSOP Structure with the exception that we play 20 minute levels. It has worked out really good for us.

View attachment 388656
I think this will fit into OP:s timeline. Should end around level 21-22, give or take. Extra cool that it's the main event structure. But the idea of 30 minutes levels would need to be dropped...
 

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