If you guys like Razz and Badugi, you might want to give Razzdugi a shot. Very fun if you're a Razz fan, I'm sure.
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Mixed Games: What is your dream mix? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter jbutler
- Start date
If you guys like Razz and Badugi, you might want to give Razzdugi a shot. Very fun if you're a Razz fan, I'm sure.
moose
4 of a Kind
I prefer not mixing Limit/PL/NL structures.
Ideal rotation for limit games would be to just play HORSE
PL, I like 345
3 - Lazy pineapple
4 - PLO8
5 - Dramaha
Ideal rotation for limit games would be to just play HORSE
PL, I like 345
3 - Lazy pineapple
4 - PLO8
5 - Dramaha
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
Strongly recommend not mixing limit games with NL games. It makes some rotations far more important than the others. Nothing worse than running good all night in limit, then you take one beat in NL and lose it all, then games switch and you have no chance to grind it back. I personally won't play mixed games that do this.
bergs
Royal Flush
What's the difference between building stacks in Limit and Pot Limit and dumping it in a single PL hand versus what I did recently in building a stack over 4 hours of limit games and dumping it in the first hand after we switched permanently to Pot Limit?
All the best live rotations I've played have mixed limit and big bet games. More challenging and more fun for all players. Evidence:
It's just not true to say you have "no chance" to grind it back. Even if you require PL or NL to make your money, those games are in the mix as well, so your preferred structure is right around the corner.
snooptodd
Straight
Also, assuming you structure the game correctly, the stakes should be relatively similar. Obviously there's going to be the possibility of MUCH larger pots in PL/NL games, but I'd wager that in my regular home game, if you compared the median pot size in limit hands vs. NL/PL hands, they'd be pretty close. And the smaller NL/PL pots are much smaller than the smallest limit ones, so the average pot size might not be that far off, either.
The big blind in our limit game is 3x our NL/PL rounds (so big bets are 6 NL big blinds). That works for us, but depending on how your game runs, you can structure it so limit bets are anywhere from 4-12 NL big blinds.
Agreed with all of the above. It's not difficult to structure the limit side to be roughly equivalent to the PL/NL side.
If anything, the pots are smaller in the PL half of my Sunday night game. But those nights when the PL side gets big, action gets absolutely great during the limit rounds as well.
bergs
Royal Flush
The limit structure in our game could actually serve to prevent people from going busto in the first 4 hours for their whole weekend roll, so that's something nice 
ssanel54
Flush
The limit structure in our game could actually serve to prevent people from going busto in the first 4 hours for their whole weekend roll, so that's something nice
the only way this happens is if you strongly enforce the rule that 2 heads up players need to continue betting and can't just agree to go all-in. And still that will only serve as like a 5 minute speed bump.
Anyone who is really concerned about the "risks" of a PL/NL portion of the game could just play those games with a cap. The cap at the Bobby's Room games has in the past typically been around 50 BBs.
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^^^^^ This works. However, regardless of the structure, if two big stacks are determined to get it all in, they will get it all in. To save time in FL and PL games, my players can go all in when HU if they wish to. (In PL games that's usually accomplished by each player saying "pot, pot, pot.")
I love to play mixed games but don't have just one favorite rotation. Some examples:
PLO, Big O
NLHE, PLO, Big O
O8, Stampler (I'm hosting this mix tomorrow)
Eight different games including NL, PL, and FL structures and a mix of flop, stud, and draw games
Dealer's choice from a predetermined list (anywhere between 8 and >100 games) played for full orbits
Bottom line: I like to mix it up.
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
No difference. PL = NL for the sake of my argument. Other than a few minor strategy differences, they both play about the same IMO.
But your example above is a classic example of why I don't like mixing them. I'd prefer to play all PL/NL games, or all Limit games. You can't make the two games play equally. It's not statistically possible. You can try to make them play for similarly sized bankrolls by having larger blinds in limit than you have in NL, but it still doesn't work. They have entirely different variance structures. Your ROR in NL/PL is considerably higher than it is in limit games. This can't be controlled to make them play equally.
That said, some games (perhaps most games on these forums?) are more about just having fun, and not about making money, optimizing one's bankroll, or limiting your ROR (hell, probably half the people in here wouldn't even know what that stands for). In which case... I don't think my argument holds much water. In those environments, I think my recipe for success would be something like - Dealer's Choice! And the optimization questions I would ask is, "What is the optimal beverage mix you want your players to bring for drink pots?" and "What is the optimal number of pizza slices per player and toppings distribution for a successful home game?"
I don't agree that you "can't make the two games play equally" or roughly equally, but let's stipulate for a moment that you can't. So what? Your previous argument was that you'd "have no chance to grind it back". I don't see how this could possibly be the case if you're playing half limit and half big bet.
To your way of thinking, the big bet round should be the cure as well as the cause of the disease and you'll only have to wait one orbit before you're back into it.
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RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
You just love to argue with me lol. I guess that's why you're a lawyer and I'm not.
All I said was that there's nothing worse than running good all night in limit, then taking one beat in a NL game and losing all your profits only to have the games switch back to limit, giving you "no chance" to grind it back. This has happened to me on several occasions. Of course "no chance" is just a figure of speech here. Yes, you have a "chance" when this happens, but the point is it's a very slim chance. Sure, sometimes there's another NL game shortly around the corner, but not always. I've played in several games where I lost my winnings on one bad beat from a NL or PL game because someone was down big and decided to take a big gamble in hopes to double up at the end of the night, only to have the game switch to a HORSE rotation a few hands later. Meanwhile, it's 2am and on the last orbit with zero NL/PL games left to play. This is what I'm referring to obviously. Note, I said that "there's nothing worse than" this occurring. In other words, I'm saying that it sucks. Of course, I can actually think of several things that are in fact worse than that.
To address you arguing with me about saying that you "can't make the two games play equally"... you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. The fact of the matter is that the games are fundamentally different. They cannot be played equally. It wasn't a subjective statement. It's also not particularly challenging to demonstrate that it is true mathematically. If you want to match variance and ROR, your average pot sizes will be drastically different. If you want to match average pot sizes, then your variance and ROR will be drastically different. There is a mathematical trade-off between the two games that prevent them from "playing equally". However, that doesn't mean they can't all be played together in good fun and everyone still has a good time.
But who cares right? Like @bergs says; "math takes all the fun out of everything". It couldn't possibly be useful for making claims and answering questions could it?
We all play poker for different reasons. Your approach to these situations and questions is likely to hinge on why you play poker to begin with. If you play merely for fun and social interactions, then I'd say just play whatever games your players enjoy most and take your best stab at whatever stakes you guys feel comfortable with.
But if it's competitive at all, and you care about leveling the playing field and optimizing your game, then you stand to benefit from not mixing limit games with NL/PL ones.
One could say there is nothing better than running bad all night in limit and getting it all back in one hand of NL... if one were so inclined.
:...... what? Why?Oh, okay... you're basing the above paragraph on the fact that sometimes after taking your big beat the game ends or changes to all limit
. Not sure using an example of the exception rather than the rule really fits here.I still have no idea how you think one would have "a very slim chance" of getting back to even after losing in a big bet round just because half the orbits are limit games. Even if you completely suck at the limit rounds, you can wait for the big bet rounds to get even. So if we are stipulating that you have basically no chance to win in the limit rounds - which seems odd since in your original hypothetical you'd won all your money in the limit rounds - you would still be at least half as likely to get even since half the orbits are big bet games.
If your objection is that the big bet rounds might be taken out of the mix and therefore you won't have that opportunity, then you've strayed completely from your original point, which was to not mix limit and big bet games together. If your point is not to play in a game where the rotation changes frequently, then that's a different argument. Though I would also take the other side of that one since if we think we are more analytically gifted than the other players in the game, we can adapt to whatever new game(s) is/are introduced and more quickly find the winning strategy than the rest of the table.
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
Ya, definitely. This is the other side of the same coin.
I should have clarified my earlier statement. This of course would depend on the structures you're playing. If you play 1-2 NL and then switch over to 10-20 limit, then sure, you have a fair chance. But in my experience, this isn't usually how home games are structured. Most of the mixed games I've played in usually double the blinds for the limit rounds, which is just remarkably unbalanced. The mixed home games I've played in were either 1-2 or 2-4 NL/PL mixes with 2/4, 4/8 or 5/10 limit games. However, a 2-4NL game plays much closer to a 20-40 limit, but I've never seen home game mixes anywhere close to that 10 to 1 ratio.
Oh, okay... you're basing the above paragraph on the fact that sometimes after taking your big beat the game ends or changes to all limit
Ya, but again, I was never using this as my "argument" for anything. @jbutler put those words in my mouth. All I said was this sucks and that it's happened to me several times. That said, if the games aren't balanced, it is something that can and often does happen to someone at the table almost every night, depending on the game.
My only argument for not mixing limit games with NL/PL is that it's not mathematically possible to make them play equally. The variance structures inherent within each game dictate this. But that's just my argument for why I personally don't like it, and why I recommend not doing it. Others don't care about this at all, and are just there to have fun and enjoy playing cards with friends.
Like I said, it just depends on your goals.
So the games can't possibly play equally, but with your prescribed 10:1 ratio it's close, but not exact, but no one does it that way. And anyone who disagrees is just there to gamble it up and can't possibly simply disagree on the merits. They can't possibly believe that this structure is actually advantageous for them despite the fact that a big premise for this argument is that it's to your disadvantage. Got it. Sounds legit.
I put no words into your mouth. You said when the games switch you have no way of getting your money back. I pointed out that the game will switch again, so if you require big bet games to get even, they're right around the corner. You responded that sometimes people change the rotation to eliminate the big bet games.
bergs
Royal Flush
Nobody is sitting down at our games just to splash around and donk - this is 1/3 disguised as 25/50c and the player pool is skilled - anyone who has played with us will vouch for that. The limit game at 3/6 is also extremely aggressive and plays bigger, and everyone buys in deep. FWIW, casino 2/5 NLHE is far, far easier than this game (but nowhere near as fun).
I think the game is actually harder from both a tilt control and intellectual perspective when you add more games and more formats to the rotation.
You're coming at this from a strictly mathematical perspective and I suppose that's fine, but your scenarios don't hold up. Let's say we played just straight NLHE and I go bust on the last orbit. I don't have much of a chance of getting my money back there either.
Assuming a reasonably even mix of limit and big bet games throughout the night, I see no reason at all why a solid player can't lose a stack at PL and grind it back at a later round.
Consider this - I buy in for $125, run it up to $250 at PL and FL, and lose it at one big PL SOHE hand. I rebuy for $200, win 2 O8
FL pots with $90 in strange money, and a small PL Tahoe pot with $40 strange money. I'm plus $5.
Is this an easy way to make money? Fuck no. It's hard as hell. That's the point. We wanted to mix formats like this to make the game more challenging for everyone. It's also why we play so deep.
I think the game is actually harder from both a tilt control and intellectual perspective when you add more games and more formats to the rotation.
You're coming at this from a strictly mathematical perspective and I suppose that's fine, but your scenarios don't hold up. Let's say we played just straight NLHE and I go bust on the last orbit. I don't have much of a chance of getting my money back there either.
Assuming a reasonably even mix of limit and big bet games throughout the night, I see no reason at all why a solid player can't lose a stack at PL and grind it back at a later round.
Consider this - I buy in for $125, run it up to $250 at PL and FL, and lose it at one big PL SOHE hand. I rebuy for $200, win 2 O8
FL pots with $90 in strange money, and a small PL Tahoe pot with $40 strange money. I'm plus $5.
Is this an easy way to make money? Fuck no. It's hard as hell. That's the point. We wanted to mix formats like this to make the game more challenging for everyone. It's also why we play so deep.
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
The entire time I'm reading each of your responses to me, all I can think of is "STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!"
Then you expressly state that you're not putting words into my mouth... LMFAO
Whatever you say man. Keep trolling...
Trolling = disagreeing I guess.
How about this: if you're in a game that is half limit and half big bet and will stay that way all night, do you still think that if you lose a giant pit in a big bet round that you have a "very slim chance" of getting the money back?
IMO, we need to keep in mind that not all games play the same. One .25/.50 NL/PL game might play like 2/5 while another might play like .10/.25, depending on the buy-in and the players themselves. In one limit game the betting might be capped on every street, while in another, two raises during the entire hand is considered overly aggressive. In big bet games, PL often plays bigger than NL with the same blinds, but not always. Each group of regular players finds its own equilibrium, and within each group it is likely that there is a combination of FL, NL, and PL structures that play approximately the same.
When I host a mixed game with mixed structures, it's usually 25/.50 and 2/4 with a max buy-in of $100. We frequently combine flop, draw, and stud games. This might not work for everybody, but it works for us.
When I host a mixed game with mixed structures, it's usually 25/.50 and 2/4 with a max buy-in of $100. We frequently combine flop, draw, and stud games. This might not work for everybody, but it works for us.
Chicken Rob
Full House
It sucks when losing a big pot shifts you to results oriented thinking and effects your play, rather than remembering it's all just one long session.
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