Tourney League Set-up? (1 Viewer)

[MrCatPants]

Looking to potentially add a league component on top of my regular tournaments. Those of you who have regular tournaments, and have it set up as a part of a league...

How do you do your points structure?

What do points get you and when/how often (e.g. More chips in a "championship" tournament, a cash prize, etc.)?

Are you funding the "get" above somehow, and if so in what percentage/structure?

What have you changed/would you change if you could and why?

 

[CraigT78]

Hello sir! I am running a monthly league and can answer your questions:

How do you do your points structure? - I use Tournament Director software currently - recently switched from blinds up. I use the Doctors formula for my league, I like it - others here do not. I believe it works for me.

Sqrt (a * b * (b / c)) / (d + 1.0))
a = Number of Players
b = Buy-in Amount (Tourney Cost)
c = Total Expense (Buy-in + Re-buy + Add-On + Bounties)
d = Player Finish Position

I have a sample excel calculator that will award points - and also allow my players to figure out how re-buy and add-on affect their points.
It is located here - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EwubFY2oB1r-00hTW6xpms3Epsr4D9Tn


What do points get you and when/how often - Points get you into our annual 'Tournament of Champions' which is our year end game that the top 10 qualify for. The players play for the prize money that I raked throughout the year. Typically it is $1,200 - $100 from each monthly game. I supply a 'Player of the year' trophy and the winner of the tournament gets their name on my perpetual 'Big Slick' trophy and a custom card capper. I try to do 13 games and use the additional $100 for expenses. The top 10 are awarded bonus chips on top of the starting stack on a 1k per point above the lowest score basis.

Example - Starting stack is 15k - Player in spot 1 finished the season with 23 more points than player 10 - 23k bonus chips. I do take the best scores from +1 of the lowest number of attended games.

Are you funding the "get" above somehow, and if so in what percentage/structure?

$100 per game - I have 20 players each month with a $40 buy-in. Average 7 re-buy and 17 add-on for a total prize pool of ~$1,500. So $100 is a small rake of just over 5%.

What have you changed/would you change if you could and why?
I went from BlindsUp! on the iPad to Tournament Director software. TD allows me much more control and better reporting. It's much harder to use, but I am an IT guy and like the comparability of it.

Changed the monthly rake from $50 to $100 fora bigger prize pool. Went from winner take all to paying the top 3. Players input was the deciding factor here. The tournament of champions is the most looked forward to game we have - the guys love it and the 12 months of smack talk that leads up to it.

I'd love to add another table but I don't have room.

EDIT - I also added an on-time bonus of 10% of the starting stack. Since I did this, we have started on-time, every time. Makes for a shorter night and more cash action afterwards!

 

[MrCatPants]

Thanks for the thoughtful answer!

 

[CraigT78]

Thanks for the thoughtful answer!

No problem - any specific questions feel free to ask! Running my league is like my favorite thing.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I strongly oppose point structures like the one that Craig posted, if the tournament is more than 1 table. Being KO'ed at a table full of excellent payers earns you far fewer points than sitting at a shitty table where everyone limps and min raises into final table.

If your goal is to make it into the money, then that's where the points should go. I also accept bonus points for attendance, because that is also a behaviour you are trying to encourage. I do not like negative points for rebuys, as you are encouraging your players to not rebuy, thus each night has a potentially smaller pot. Smaller pots make the game less worthwhile for the occasional players, so you discourage them from even attending. Is that really what you want?

 

[CraigT78]

I strongly oppose point structures like the one that Craig posted, if the tournament is more than 1 table. Being KO'ed at a table full of excellent payers earns you far fewer points than sitting at a shitty table where everyone limps and min raises into final table.

If your goal is to make it into the money, then that's where the points should go. I also accept bonus points for attendance, because that is also a behaviour you are trying to encourage. I do not like negative points for rebuys, as you are encouraging your players to not rebuy, thus each night has a potentially smaller pot. Smaller pots make the game less worthwhile for the occasional players, so you discourage them from even attending. Is that really what you want?

I'm glad someone experienced opposed my post. As I am open to other suggestions, the point structure I use provides me a sliding scale based off of entry cost and number of players. Yes, adding on or rebuying will effect the total points earned, as it should. My thought process is more points for winning with less $$. If you have to rebuy to win, you should get less points than if you did not. What is the alternative?

 

[Poker Zombie]

I've had this discussion with Dr Neau (the originator of that formula).

I think the goal is to win, like any sport. I don't care if you spent a hundred million dollars on your baseball team, or 50 million - a "W" is a "W". Not a half "W" (I guess that would be a "V"?)

Moreover, league structures encourage behavior. The greater the end of year prize, the greater effect the points will affect the play at your game. If the league winner gets $1, then whoop-de-do, nobody will pay attention to the points. If the winner gets $3.5 Million and 30 minutes with Mila Kunis, your points are going to have a massive effect. So I only support points that encourage the exact behavior you want. For my games, this is finishing in the money, with more points for winning and for for beating a deeper field. I also award more points based on total average buy-in, so the more rebuys that occur the more points the winner will get. Thus encouraging rebuys. It is also the same formula used by Bluff Magazine for Poker Player of the Year.

I'm currently on vacation though, so I cannot post my formula at this time. But if you Googled "Bluff Magazine Player of the year", you might be able to find it.

 

[MrCatPants]

Thanks. Agree with the significance of the prize. Some buddies of mine and I put together a golf league a few years back, and pulled a tiny amount off each registration for prizes for our point system. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough of a motivator (or at least couldn't overcome family pressures) as we were primarily focused on driving regular attendance.

I'd be curious on your formula when you get back, as well as what those points/that pull gets people.

And I can see both sides of the re-buy argument. Someone winning on their first buy-in versus winning on their second buy-in, yes a win is a a win, but one is a more successful win.

 

[timinater]

I run our league with about a dozen various spreadsheets. Send me a PM if you are interested and I can give you more details. Basically I enter the results and it calculates payouts, points etc. It's been years of tweaking and tuning. Goal of our league is mostly to socialize and give the winner some extra pocket cash. Pretty friendly stakes.

To answer your questions:

How do you do your points structure?
See below

What do points get you and when/how often (e.g. More chips in a "championship" tournament, a cash prize, etc.)?
More chips in the final tournament.

Are you funding the "get" above somehow, and if so in what percentage/structure?
We take $10 from every tournament entry and add it to the Final Table prize pool. Typically is about $1000 or so.

What have you changed/would you change if you could and why?
We've changed lots over the years:

• Went from 12 to 8 games to run through seasons quicker.
• Went from top 10 points earners make final table to 3 game minimum and no player cap to encourage attendance
• added the early bird bonus to encourage people to show up on time (works so damn well)
• Tweaked the point system over time - happy with it now.
• Added game formats. Used to be all NLH Tourneys, now we've got a good mix.
• Added in the bonus payouts - the 7-2 and Bounty are a lot of fun, rebating the first out $10 is always hilarious.

Here is our rules doc which gives the overview of how our tournaments work

--------------------------

Season Format
Each season will consist of eight preliminary tournaments. 5 Freeze out tournaments, 1 Bounty, 1 Deep Stack and 1 rebuy tournament. We will play every third week. Sunday in the summer, Saturday night otherwise.

Game Structures
Freeze Out Tournament

• Buy-in: $50, with $10 going to the Final Table. Re-entry will be available for $50 during the first four levels of the tournament.
• Starting stack: 1200
• Players arriving on time are eligible for an 'Early Bird Bonus' of 300 chips. To be eligible for the bonus you must be PRESENT and READY TO PLAY before the first card is dealt. The first card will be dealt at 7:00 sharp.
• 11 or less players will play at one table, 12+ players will start with two tables, and merge at 10 players remaining.

Rebuy Tournament

• Buy-in: $20, with $5 going to the Final Table.
• Starting stack: 500
• Rebuy: $20, 500 chips, conditional, must be less than or equal to starting stack.
• Add-on: $20, 1000 chips, unconditional.
• There is NO EARLY BIRD for this tournament but it is advised to be there on time.

Deep-Stack Freeze Out Tournament

• Buy-in: $100, with $10 going to the Final Table. Re-entry will not be available.
• Starting stack: 10,000
• See Deep Stack blind levels below.
• There is NO EARLY BIRD for this tournament but it is advised to be there on time. The first card will be dealt at 1:00pm sharp.
• 11 or less players will play at one table, 12+ players will start with two tables, and merge at 10 players remaining.
• Maximum of 20 players.

Payouts

• 10 or less players: 1st = 50%, 2nd = 30%, 3rd = 20%
• 11 or more players: 1st = 50%, 2nd = 25%, 3rd = 15%, 4th = 10%

Side Payouts

• 7-2: $10 - First player to win hand and show 7-2. Rolls over to next league game if unclaimed. Final Table excluded.
• Donkey: $10 - First player eliminated. Re-entries must repay donkey payout.
• Bounty: $10 - awarded to player that eliminates last games winner. Unclaimed bounties will carry forward to the next league game. Final Table excluded.

Points
Points that go towards final table chip stacks are awarded based on the number of players, and your finish. Points are awarded equal to your finish position with exceptions for those that cash, and the first three eliminated. Ex: 4th player eliminated receives 4 points, 5th player eliminated receives 5, etc. The players that finish in the money receive a “cash bonus”:

• 10 or less players 1st, 2nd and 3rd receive "Cash Bonus" of 6, 4 and 2 points
• 11 or more players 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th receive "Cash Bonus" of 8, 6, 4 and 2 points
• Example:
  • 1st -10 + 6 = 16
  • 2nd - 9 + 4 = 13
  • 3rd - 8 + 2 = 10
  • 4th - 7
  • 5th - 6
  • 6th - 5
  • 7th - 4
  • 8th - 3
  • 9th - 3
  • 10th - 3

Final Table
The Final Table will take place at a predetermined time. At host’s discretion the Final Table may be rescheduled, or the next season start before the Final Table for the previous season is played.

• Must play in a minimum of three preliminary games to qualify for final table.
• Chips are distributed based on points earned for preliminary game finishes.
• Average chip stack will be 2000. Ex: If the average point total is 50, the point multiplier would be established at 1 point = 40 chips. If you finished the season with 37 points, you would receive 1480 chips to start the final table. The multiplier will be finalized at the end of the eight preliminary tournaments.
• There is no maximum number of players who can qualify for the final

Freeze Out & Re-buy Blinds
20 minute levels

• 5/10
• 10/20
• 15/30
• 20/40
• BREAK
• 30/60
• 40/80
• 60/120
• BREAK - Remove 5s
• 75/150
• 100/200
• 150/300
• BREAK
• 200/400 \
• 300/600 > Ends here-ish.
• 400/800 /
• BREAK
• 600/1200
• 800/1600
• 1000/2000
• 1500/3000

 

[MrCatPants]

I run our league with about a dozen various spreadsheets. Send me a PM if you are interested and I can give you more details. Basically I enter the results and it calculates payouts, points etc. It's been years of tweaking and tuning. Goal of our league is mostly to socialize and give the winner some extra pocket cash. Pretty friendly stakes.

To answer your questions:

How do you do your points structure?
See below

Thanks for the thorough reply!

 

[TexRex]

MrCatPants, I used to run a league. I'm happy to share what we did, but I'll answer your questions and only briefly describe how I did it.

How do you do your points structure?
Answer: I based mine on Bluff Magazine or Card Player Magazine (can't off the top of my head remember which). We had categories of points for several things:

1. Winner
2. In the Points (top 7)
3. Final Table
4. Knockouts
5. Appearances

We rewarded most those things most difficult to do. Instead of a single system of points, we had 5, though they were not all equal in weight, and converted scores by comparing all players in each category, converting scores so all collective scores added up to 1 in each category (.xxx), then multiplied each factor by the weighted amount and added the scores. We also had an average in those categories, with a minimum of 7 games (at the end, average scores were divided by 7 or the number of appearances if greater than 7). That kept someone from coming and winning a couple of times, never coming back, but winding up on top.

For points, we used a Fibonacci sequence. Appearance points = 1, then from 7th to 1st -- 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34. That was multiplied by # of players/ a number. I ran this 2 ways. One was based on every additional player being multiplied by 1.04 and the other was dividing players by 10 (that makes each additional player worth less for points). There was no material difference in outcome. I was ONLY trying to establish our very best players for awards and determining that by their performance.

Ours were all freeze out tournaments, and all the same buy-in fee, so that eliminated a lot of variables some have.

If we had 20 players, the only ones who got any significant points were those in the top 7. It's hard to have a system that works for multiple tables where order of finish counts because tables don't play at the same pace, players come late but finish higher than someone KO'd early, etc.

If we had 40 players attend games, I only wanted to distinguish who the top 5-7 were over the course of the game. Those were the ones who won some type of award. ***

What do points get you and when/how often (e.g. More chips in a "championship" tournament, a cash prize, etc.)?
Answer: We didn't have a championship tournament. We had a Main Event, but it was open to everyone. Everyone started with the same number of chips. Everyone paid the same amount to get in. It is a longer tournament. Some years it was limited ONLY to those who attended and some years it's been open to anyone. ***

Are you funding the "get" above somehow, and if so in what percentage/structure?
Answer: We added 10% to the buy-in for the Main Event fee. Our buy-in was $20. At the end of the year, if our Main Event was $60, and you had attended 10 games, $20 of your fee for the Main Event (ME) was already paid so you only owed $40. If you attended 1 game, you owed $58.

We didn't do that every year. Some players didn't like funding the ME every month if they couldn't make the ME, and we couldn't accommodate all the players. I did offer to have a preliminary game so all could participate, but never had to do that.

I abandoned the league in our 4 year of it when I found players either didn't care or didn't like it. Less than 1/3 wanted to keep the league format. ***

What have you changed/would you change if you could and why?
Answer: We changed to a series of independent tournaments. Each tournament stands on its own. That's even how our league format worked -- the reward for doing well in a tournament was cashing in and an award at the end. It was more about bragging rights than much in the way of a tangible reward. Players told me not to underestimate those bragging rights!

I formed the league because I played in one. After talking to numerous players, I found out what they didn't like about that league and sought to have one without the issues they most disliked.

What I dislike most about leagues is that there is no reason I'd go play in a league game unless I was a regular. I'd just be funding an event that I can't participate in. Generally, my perception is that leagues seem to have declining attendance as the season wears on. Once a player is out of the big event, regardless of format, they have no incentive to keep playing.

What I like about each tournament stands on its own is it encourages new players since they aren't penalized for not having been there before and they don't pay for something they won't participate in. And they are MUCH easier to manage, though I had fun running stats and playing with them! ***

I've developed some questions I've asked players. You might consider surveying players to find out what they like and don't like. I honestly have been very surprised by answers I got. Some things I liked, most players didn't. What I try to do is give players as much of what they want as I can, but you can't ever make everyone happy. During the 4th year, when I surveyed players, I was shocked at how many disliked the league format (about 40%). They tolerated it I guess because it wasn't that expensive ($2 a night). Some don't like a Tournament of Champions; some don't like a final game with varied starting stacks; some don't like a big even game they can't play in but paid for. Everyone has a different opinion.

Keep this in mind -- You will get the kind of behavior your system encourages. So think long and hard about what you really want and make sure your rules encourage what you want.

 

[T_Chan]

I run a league as well that has is into it's 10th year, so lots of time to make adjustments and tweaks along the way.

How do you do your points structure?

We try to keep things simple, so although a points system using a formula is probably more fair, we just go with #of points depending on place finished:
Place finished -- points
1st -- 100
2 -- 90
3 -- 85
4 -- 82
5 -- 79
6 -- 76
7 -- 73
8 -- 70
9 -- 67
10 -- 64
11 -- 62
12 -- 60
13 -- 58
14 -- 56
15 -- 54
16 -- 52
17 -- 50
18 -- 48
19 -- 46
20 -- 44
21 -- 42
22 -- 40
23 -- 38
24 -- 36
25 -- 34
26 -- 32
27 -- 30
28 -- 28
29 -- 26
30 -- 25
31 -- 24
etc....

What do points get you and when/how often (e.g. More chips in a "championship" tournament, a cash prize, etc.)?

The points to towards your chip stack for the season finale game. Formula:

(Starting Stack of 10,000) + (Attendance x 1000 per game played) + (Season Points x 20)

Example: Daniel Moneymaker shows up to 7 games and has 250 points. He gets:

(10,000) + (7 games x 1000) + (250 x 20 points) = 22,000 chips

We also have some games with bonus points, such as bounties night (3 bonus points per KO), Best hand of the night, and Invite A Friend games.

We founds this to be a good balance to really encourage attendance throughout the year which is high priority.

Are you funding the "get" above somehow, and if so in what percentage/structure?

Every player pays $10 per game which goes to the pot for the season finale. The rest of the buy in for the night goes towards the pot for that night so that there is a prize pool every night plus a big bonus prize at the end of the year.

What have you changed/would you change if you could and why?

Any changes have been made over the years, now we just some minor fine tuning along the way.

A few years ago we implemented a big change though which is bonus chips for every player.
10% bonus chips if you RSVP and another 10% bonus if you arrive and pay on time.
Not knowing who's going to be at your game is really frustrating for the host. With the RSVP bonus, anyone who's going to be there will let you know to get the extra chips. And who doesn't hate players who show up late? Another great incentive to get players to arrive on time.

 

[MrCatPants]

Thanks, TexRex. Appreciate the feedback, and was definitely planning on asking my players. Trying to encourage regular attendance (though my game is growing and this may be less of an issue - better to attract with a good game/good action than monetary coercion, right?) so was thinking about this path that a lot of others go down. Plus, wanted to have a "big event" - but maybe I might be better served just jacking up the buy-ins once a year and treating it like a main event.

 

[MrCatPants]

@T_Chan , what is your total buy-in for these tourneys - is the $10 per to fund the league a significant portion of it?

 

[T_Chan]

Our buy ins are $60, so it's a chunk of the buy in but not huge. There's still a decent pot to win at the end of each night.