Is This Situation an Angle or Not? How Would You Deal with It? (1 Viewer)

[rusmon]

I recently ran into a situation during a 25¢/50¢ cash game I was hosting and wanted to get your thoughts on whether it was an angle or not and how you would have dealt with it.

Here's the situation: We were playing towards the end of the night when the game usually plays much bigger. I had just lost an all-in and was down $275 for the night, so I decided to rebuy for $200. The announced buy-in for the game was $25-$75, but usually towards the end, we do match half-stack. However, I didn't announce that I was buying in for so much (the biggest stack at the table was about $900).

In a hand against a regular player who's very particular about the rules, we ended up going all-in on the river ($135 effective on the river). I called off with 2nd pair, thinking he was bluffing, and it turned out I was right. At this point, he started making a big deal about me having $200 in chips, saying that I shouldn't have so much since the max buy-in was $75. He claimed that he went all-in knowing how much I had behind but didn't want to say anything to avoid giving off the strength/weakness of his hand.

I felt like this was a huge angle, and I believe he would have expected me to pay off if he had the best hand in that spot. To avoid causing a scene, I ended up telling him that if he felt so strongly about the situation, he didn't have to pay off $100 of the stack.

What do you think? Was this an angle or just a misunderstanding? How would you have dealt with this situation?

 

[rusmon]

I do feel that I was partially responsible since I didn't announce that I was buying in for more than the announced buy-in.

 

[CraigT78]

That guy can go fly a kite in the rain.

 

[Hornet]

Clearly an angle. I seriously doubt that he only takes $75 from you if he wins. That being said, your buy-in rules should be very clear up front.

 

[rusmon]

That being said, your buy-in rules should be very clear up front.

That's where I think my responsibility comes in. As host I should have been more clear. We always cap it $75 for the first half of the night and then allow deeper rebuys at the end of the night. I never announced that I was allowing bigger buy-ins though so I do take partial responsibility. Will definitely be much more clear about buy-in structure for future games.

 

[Frogzilla]

Was yours the first rebuy over $75 of the night? Was the hand immediately after you rebought?

 

[rusmon]

Was yours the first rebuy over $75 of the night? Was the hand immediately after you rebought?

I rebought for $100 before this rebuy. I was the only one who rebought for more than $75 this night and nobody rebought after I rebought for $100. This hand was the very next hand after I rebought for $200.

 

[upNdown]

Eff that freerolling bullshit. Sounds like maybe he took advantage of you and your good nature.
And how could it be your fault for not announcing it, if he admitted he knew what you had behind?
But yeah, as host I’m always pretty loud about all rebuys, especially my own.

 

[Josh Kifer]

It's a angle. But it's also the reason you announce your rebuys and make sure at least someone hears you. He's not right. But he should know what you have behind when in the hand. Meh. No refunds.

 

[Frogzilla]

It sounds like there had been a lot of rebuys at $75. For someone to build up a stack to $900. I’d be pretty annoyed if I thought the hand was $75 effective and it’s actually $200 and I realize mid hand. And I’d probably complain too. I don’t think I’d ask for my money back but you’d probably hear an earful for a while.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Buy-in rules should be clear and accessible to everyone.

Btw I don't think it's an angle from him. An angle to me is deceiving another player without actually breaking any rules.

Like saying "straight" at showdown without tabling your hand, hoping the other player will just muck and not make you show your rags.

That player simply voiced his grievance with your unclear buy-in rules and you agreed to only make him pay the max buy-in amount.

Sounds like a gentlemen's agreement and not an angle to me.

 

[Nine_high]

I do feel that I was partially responsible since I didn't announce that I was buying in for more than the announced buy-in.

How do you do your buyins?

My cap is fixed all night, no match the stack or anything. But I always hold the deal and lay all buy in money flat in the middle of the table and count the chips next to it and state the amount. Whether it's me or another player. That way anyone who wants to pay attention knows how much just got added into play and that the bank is accurate.

I am not on this guys side and it could be angling. But if your cap rules are unclear and your buy in was unclear, I can see why he might honestly be upset. It can lead to these type of issues. If you clearly announced you were buying $200 then he has no right to be upset or any claim to his lost bet whatsoever. It would be clear the cap was raised at that time, not after a huge pot was awarded.

 

[rusmon]

But yeah, as host I’m always pretty loud about all rebuys, especially my own.

But it's also the reason you announce your rebuys and make sure at least someone hears you.

Live and learn. I've run this game for about a year now in it's current iteration. Never had this issue before so I'm taking it as a learning experience.

I’d be pretty annoyed if I thought the hand was $75 effective and it’s actually $200 and I realize mid hand. And I’d probably complain too.

Yeah, that's why I decided to let him off for the final $100. I would be annoyed as well if I realized effective stack was much bigger mid-hand. I definitely take partial responsibility for the situation even coming up.

 

[rusmon]

Buy-in rules should be clear and accessible to everyone.

But if your cap rules are unclear and your buy in was unclear, I can see why he might honestly be upset.

That's exactly what caused the situation. The buy-in rules were unclear. We do allow half match stack towards the end of the night. This particular night it was never formally announced by me. For all future games I will specify what time match stack is available and will announce rebuys to the whole table.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Live and learn. I've run this game for about a year now in it's current iteration. Never had this issue before so I'm taking it as a learning experience.

Yeah, that's why I decided to let him off for the final $100. I would be annoyed as well if I realized effective stack was much bigger mid-hand. I definitely take partial responsibility for the situation even coming up.

Ehhh. Your not. At our game, it would be more of a "nice thing to do" than any responsibility. Very minimal on your side, just something that you could have gotten ahead of if you announced and it wouldn't have been a valid bitch, even tho it's not a valid bitch.

 

[upNdown]

But he should know what you have behind when in the hand.

100%

 

[Josh Kifer]

100%

The brightly coloured discs can explain that....

BIG CHIPS UP FRONT!

 

[joker80]

As long as your stack and chips were visible to him, the error was on his part not yours. This is always a sticky situation when you are hosting however as you do not want to make it look like you are being unfair to your advantage. But if I was ruling I would rule in your favor

 

[rusmon]

This is always a sticky situation when you are hosting however as you do not want to make it look like you are being unfair to your advantage

Yeah, that's always my biggest concern as host. I want to make sure everything is above board.

 

[Nine_high]

Ehhh. Your not. At our game, it would be more of a "nice thing to do" than any responsibility. Very minimal on your side, just something that you could have gotten ahead of if you announced and it wouldn't have been a valid bitch, even tho it's not a valid bitch.

Agree with this completely. I don't think you owed him the $100 despite the situation. But in your shoes I might have done the same, in the name of keeping the game healthy.

I almost returned a pot to a player after a PLO hand because he didn't understand how to calculate a pot sized raise (I had only taught them the game a couple sessions before). He thought I was overbetting the pot (I wasn't) and argued with me. After a couple minutes he conceded and folded, then stayed quiet the rest of the night. Definitely my pot, but I felt bad because it seems he thought he had been taken advantage of. I didn't return his bet but in hindsight I wonder if I should have.

 

[Jimulacrum]

1. Have clear rules about buy-ins upfront. Ambiguous practices like "Sometimes we do match the the big stack later in the night" lead to people getting their butts hurt. Make it clear and be consistent.

2. Never quietly slip chips onto the table. Always make players aware of what's coming into play.

3. Despite 1 and 2, unless you really hid some high-value chips or something, it's each player's responsibility to assess your stack size, even if it means asking for a clear view. "I didn't want to tip my hand" is not an excuse for not knowing stack size when you could have asked. Other players aren't beholden to your timidity. He lost the $200 fair and square.

4. I understand why you let him off the hook for the other $100, but I think it's a bad precedent to set. I've seen this come up again and again in home games, where there's a dealing irregularity (e.g., premature turn), it changes things dramatically, and someone waits to see if he wins by chance anyway, and only loudly complains if he loses. It gives crafty players the idea to do exactly the angle you're concerned about.

5. Was this specific player doing it as an angle? Hard to tell from only the details you've provided.

If he had a good hand and was value betting, would he insist on paying you back the extra $100? Do you think he genuinely didn't notice the $200 or noticed it but chose not to speak up until he lost?

These questions are your only guide, really.

 

[Jimulacrum]

As long as your stack and chips were visible to him, the error was on his part not yours. This is always a sticky situation when you are hosting however as you do not want to make it look like you are being unfair to your advantage. But if I was ruling I would rule in your favor

Yeah, this is the thing that makes it a bit of a mess. Host having to rule on his own case sucks.

Thought exercise for OP: Suppose everything else plays out the same (the rebuy, the hand, everything), except it's another player instead with the $200 instead of you. How do you handle that as host?

 

[LotsOfChips]

It doesn’t matter whether you announced your buy in amount or not, your stack was on the table and fully visible. All the whiner had to do was look. If for some reason he couldn’t see, then he could ask what you had for a stack.

If he’s such a stickler for rules, he should know that.

 

[rusmon]

If he had a good hand and was value betting, would he insist on paying you back the extra $100? Do you think he genuinely didn't notice the $200 or noticed it but chose not to speak up until he lost?

Knowing this player, I'm 95% sure he would expect to pay out my entire stack in that situation.

Thought exercise for OP: Suppose everything else plays out the same (the rebuy, the hand, everything), except it's another player instead with the $200 instead of you. How do you handle that as host?

The only reason I let him off the hook is because I'm the host. If it was another player, I would rule that the full $200 plays.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Knowing this player, I'm 95% sure he would expect to pay out my entire stack in that situation.

The only reason I let him off the hook is because I'm the host. If it was another player, I would rule that the full $200 plays.

I think you answered your own questions here.

 

[MeridianFC]

It doesn’t matter whether you announced your buy in amount or not, your stack was on the table and fully visible. All the whiner had to do was look. If for some reason he couldn’t see, then he could ask what you had for a stack.

If he’s such a stickler for rules, he should know that.

Agree.

I understand why you took the action and don't necessarily disagree with it. The more socially driven your game is the more understandable the action is.

That said this is why I'm not a believer in this type of variable based on some other stack re-buy. I strongly prefer re-buys for the minimum or up the maxim initial buy-in.

 

[glynn]

Another thing to consider is whether you want this player at your game. It would be one thing if it were an honest mistake, but you've outright said that he was trying to freeroll you. How close does he have to get to straight theft before you stop extending an invite? How thin is your player list?

 

[ArielVer18]

He claimed that he went all-in knowing how much I had behind but didn't want to say anything

This is enough. Yes, you messed up by not announcing the amount of your buy-in, but this player admitted to knowing exactly how much you started the hand with, so he's trying to weasel out of paying you the full amount

 

[Taghkanic]

Unless this person is brand new to your game, he must have known that people buy in for more than $75 later in the evening, making it an angle.

 

[Machine]

I had just lost an all-in and was down $275 for the night, so I decided to rebuy for $200. The announced buy-in for the game was $25-$75, but usually towards the end, we do match half-stack.

If I was a player at the table, and I was spectating, I would question if I wanted to keep attending your game. You don't have much to worry about, I'm a degen, but this drama would take a note in my head.

First we are here, I would never let him out of the bet, chips are in play and after he admitted to noting the stack, its on him.

I don't announce when players rebuy or for how much, its out there but I'm not drawing attention to it, when I rebuy players know but again I'm not announcing it.

Consistency, set rules, follow them, no exception bullshit, no highway option. Delineate when the game goes match stack

I virulently dislike the match stack games, it makes the game about the money, if thats what the game is, then great but typically .25/.5 is about the game and bop'n around for a few hundred, match stack changes that.