Tourney Is there a benefit to 25/50 starting blinds? (1 Viewer)

[Sprinsd]

I joined a poker league about 4 years ago. The league existed many years before I joined. It is your typical neighborhood league with dice chips and people looking to have a good time. I have slowly introduced improvements to the game such as nicer cards etc. I have a few nice Paulson tournament sets I want to get into play so this year I am proposing 25/50 starting blinds and a 10k starting stack. Today they start with 200 chip starting stack and 1/2 starting blinds. I know the league doesn’t like a lot of change and may have an issue with the new structure. My question is, are there benefits to the 25/50 starting blinds and a larger 10k starting stack? I am going to need to “sell” this idea to the league. I mean, most casinos start with 25/50 blinds so there has to be a reason right? Any benefits you could help me come up with would be appreciated.

 

[Blaster]

If you want to move to your Paulsons, You can tell them that generally all major Casino tournaments now Start at 25/50 , never $1/2 , so it good to get used to...
If it is your turn to host, use the nice chips and just do it ...
Wouldn't be surprised if after a few games they prefer the 25/50 & better chips over the dice 1/2 tournaments ....

 

[AceFour]

We do two tournaments at the cigar shop. One is rebuy up to 300/600 with a starting stack of 5k. Typically have 2 or three tables running about 30 buys. That starts at 7:30pm and we hard stop at midnight. Recently it has been hitting the hard stop. That is with a 25/50 starting blind level.

Blinds go up every 20 minutes

• 25/50
• 50/100
• 75/150
• 100/200
• 150/300
• 200/400
• 300/600 Rebuy ends
• 500/1000
• 800/1600
• 1000/2000
• 1500/3000

The other game we tried is a no rebuy deep stack of 10k. We usually have 2 tables for that and starting at 25/50. That game was taking way too long. We cut it back to 7K starting stack.

 

[links_slayer]

100BB to start is 100BB regardless of the initial SB/BB.

i guess the rest is just mental/psychological.

 

[upNdown]

• 25/50
• 50/100
• 75/150
• 100/200
• 150/300
• 200/400
• 300/600 Rebuy ends
• 500/1000
• 800/1600
• 1000/2000
• 1500/3000

Pretty standard. Feels like round, intuitive numbers that work smoothly with chips.
What’s the 1/2 equivalent?
1/2
2/4
3/6
4/8
6/12
9/18
I’ve tried to set up a blind format for 1/2 and I’ve never liked it. You can tweak it to make the numbers rounder, but the increases aren’t as uniform or predictable.
It’s why I’ve never understood why some people make “high roller” tournament sets that start at 1,000/2,000 - you run into all the same problems.
I dunno, maybe I’m just biased because I’m used to 25/50.

 

[rowlin]

I like that 25/50 starting structures play for long stretches with blind amounts in nice, easy increments of 100, and later 1000.

 

[Steve Birrer]

The starting blinds are really irrelevant. What matters is the number of big blinds you start with and how fast the blinds ramp up. For example, 1/2 and 200 chips is no different than 25/50 and 5K in starting chips. So if it were me, when it came around to my turn to host I'd just use my nice chips and go with 25/50 but stick with 5K stacks. Hard for anybody to moan about that.

Given this is a league you probably should keep the same general approach. If you went with 10K starting stacks that is twice the number of starting chips relative to the way you have been playing. Part of the issue may also be what chips the other guys have. Maybe they have all built their chips around the 1/2 and 200 starting size chips.Would be tough to all of a sudden to switch to 25/50 for those guys who have chips with the denominations on them. Easy for chips that are just colored but most guys I play with have moved to sets with the denominations on them.

Editorial - I dislike playing with chips that don't say the amount on them because too many guys just can't keep the numbers straight.

 

[Kensco]

100BB to start is 100BB regardless of the initial SB/BB.

i guess the rest is just mental/psychological.

This ^^

Sell them on the aspect of using your nice set. The blind amounts will fall into place based upon the denoms in your set.

Be prepared for the argument that someone will have to put in the man hours to alter the blind structure in whatever application you are using to manage the tournaments, and

Unless you know all the players really really really well, be prepared to have a few of your chips walk off as souvenirs.

 

[Frogzilla]

One advantage, and I've always assumed this is why T25 is so popular in the casinos, is that it's a much different base than cash games, and it probably prevents some confusion and/or chip swaps. So if you're going to do a cash game (and obviously, always do this with a separate chip set), T25 would be much better for your tourney than T1 or T5.

That...and your Paulsons are T25 base! What more advantage do you need

 

[BGinGA]

The actual starting stack sizes -- and the actual starting blind amounts -- are far less important than a) the number of starting blinds in a starting stack, and b) how quickly that number of starting stack blinds is decimated by the blind structure.

A T200 starting stack with 1/2 opening blinds is 100bb per starting stack, the exact same as a T10k starting stack with 50/100 opening blinds... or T1000 stacks with 5/10 opening blinds. All 100bb events -- regardless of how constructed -- will play exactly the same, provided the blind structure percentage increases and the blind level times are the same for each event.

Some starting configurations are more efficient than others, however. A T25-base set is not one of those that qualify as efficient, unless one chooses to use T500 & T2000 denominations and exclude T1000 chips.

A T.25-base set actually works best (T.25, T1, T5, T25) from an efficiency perspective. A T1-base set (T1, T5, T25, T100) works, but at a 5:1 replacement ratio for the lowest two denominations, is inherently less efficient (or cost effective). A T5-base (T5, T25, T100, T500) structure runs into issues once the field size reaches certain numbers, and a T25-base set has inherent problems right out of the gate.


Most casino tournaments have historically been either T1 or T5 base, until the relatively recent (2005-ish) popularity of the WSOP (which featured a $10000 buy-in for T10000 in chips with 25/50 opening blinds). Many casino tournaments have since changed to T25 base sets and events, but don't be misled that it is better in some fashion -- it really isn't. It's just a cheap casino trick to make you think you're getting something "more" for your money, i.e. marketing.


I'd be more concerned with how the structure itself works.

 

[Sprinsd]

I'd be more concerned with how the structure itself works.

Thank you all for the input. I was hoping there would be some magic/mathematical reason 25/50 is preferred over 1/2 but it doesn’t sound like that is the case. I would think the argument that the Paulson chips have denominations on them instead of blank dice chips would be enough to convince the group but they can be pretty stubborn. I can’t tell you how many times someone will ask “what are the white chips worth again” during the tournament. Most likely I will be providing the chips for 100% of the games this year. About half of the games will be at my place where we will use nice chips and the other half I will supply Monte Carlo plastic chips so I don’t have to babysit them. Since I am providing the chips I am just going to man-up and tell them what the structure will be. We play during the week so I am trying to come up with a structure that will last 3 hours max. Anyone see any issues with the following?


T10,000

15 minute blinds

Desired Duration – 3 hrs


25/50

50/100

75/150

100/200

150/300

200/400

300/600

500/1000

800/1600

1200/2400

2000/4000

3000/6000

 

[upNdown]

Did you ever tell us how many people are playing? Assuming a single table and short breaks I’d guess you’re good for 3 hours.

I applaud your efforts. But if they resist, you’re better off staying at 1/2 and keeping them happy. You’ll just have to drop a few bucks on a set of Horseshoes or something. Because keeping the group happy is probably as important as using clay chips with numbers on them.

 

[Sprinsd]

Did you ever tell us how many people are playing? Assuming a single table and short breaks I’d guess you’re good for 3 hours.

I applaud your efforts. But if they resist, you’re better off staying at 1/2 and keeping them happy. You’ll just have to drop a few bucks on a set of Horseshoes or something. Because keeping the group happy is probably as important as using clay chips with numbers on them.

There are 10 players. I introduced my horseshoe set last year when I hosted. I just hate taking them somewhere because I feel like I have to stay for the end of the Tournament to take them home. With plastic Monte Carlos I could care less if some get lost or damaged. Thanks for your advice.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Thank you all for the input. I was hoping there would be some magic/mathematical reason 25/50 is preferred over 1/2 but it doesn’t sound like that is the case. I would think the argument that the Paulson chips have denominations on them instead of blank dice chips would be enough to convince the group but they can be pretty stubborn. I can’t tell you how many times someone will ask “what are the white chips worth again” during the tournament. Most likely I will be providing the chips for 100% of the games this year. About half of the games will be at my place where we will use nice chips and the other half I will supply Monte Carlo plastic chips so I don’t have to babysit them. Since I am providing the chips I am just going to man-up and tell them what the structure will be. We play during the week so I am trying to come up with a structure that will last 3 hours max. Anyone see any issues with the following?

"Telling" the league there will be a new structure because you say so when it's been running for years before you joined seems pretty rude and presumptuous to me. I just joined a new league this year that does many things I don't agree with. I sent the head of the league a softly worded email outlining a couple things I noticed and it went over very well. Now we may be using better starting stacks (3 denoms over 5) and better chips and I don't look like an asshole.

 

[Frogzilla]

"Telling" the league there will be a new structure because you say so when it's been running for years before you joined seems pretty rude and presumptuous to me. I just joined a new league this year that does many things I don't agree with. I sent the head of the league a softly worded email outlining a couple things I noticed and it went over very well. Now we may be using better starting stacks (3 denoms over 5) and better chips and I don't look like an asshole.

My M.O.:
Phrase it as an idea to try, explain your position thoroughly, and do it 1-on-1. Start with whomever you expect to most agree with you, and go from there. Address/acknowledge the concerns if any come up, and try to mitigate

 

[Jambine]

I'd be more concerned with how the structure itself works.

^That^
the denominations are just placeholders. You could have effectively the same structure starting 1/2 as you do starting 25/50.
You're just changing the labels

 

[BGinGA]

Thank you all for the input. I was hoping there would be some magic/mathematical reason 25/50 is preferred over 1/2 but it doesn’t sound like that is the case. I would think the argument that the Paulson chips have denominations on them instead of blank dice chips would be enough to convince the group but they can be pretty stubborn. I can’t tell you how many times someone will ask “what are the white chips worth again” during the tournament. Most likely I will be providing the chips for 100% of the games this year. About half of the games will be at my place where we will use nice chips and the other half I will supply Monte Carlo plastic chips so I don’t have to babysit them. Since I am providing the chips I am just going to man-up and tell them what the structure will be. We play during the week so I am trying to come up with a structure that will last 3 hours max. Anyone see any issues with the following?


T10,000

15 minute blinds

Desired Duration – 3 hrs


25/50

50/100

75/150

100/200

150/300

200/400

300/600

500/1000

800/1600

1200/2400

2000/4000

3000/6000

Personally, I dislike your blind structure shown above quite a bit. You start out by immediately cutting the starting stack in half after 15 minutes, and subsequent blind increases are not consistent.


Assuming that it has worked well for years (before you got there), I also see no valid reason to change the current league structure...... other than to introduce chips with actual denominations. Just use the current 1/2 opening blinds format with T200 starting stacks, and merely replace the previous dice chips with denominated chips (T1, T5, T25, and T100). You will get less push-back, and the game will run more smoothly with denominated chips. Win-win.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Personally, I dislike your blind structure shown above quite a bit. You start out by immediately cutting the starting stack in half after 15 minutes, and subsequent blind increases are not consistent.


Assuming that it has worked well for years (before you got there), I also see no valid reason to change the current league structure...... other than to introduce chips with actual denominations. Just use the current 1/2 opening blinds format with T200 starting stacks, and merely replace the previous dice chips with denominated chips (T1, T5, T25, and T100). You will get less push-back, and the game will run more smoothly with denominated chips. Win-win.

25/50 then 50/100 is pretty standard so I am guessing your issue is with having such short levels. And if that's the case I agree. My limited experience is that 15 minute blind levels turns in to an all in fest pretty quickly.

 

[Sprinsd]

25/50 then 50/100 is pretty standard so I am guessing your issue is with having such short levels. And if that's the case I agree. My limited experience is that 15 minute blind levels turns in to an all in fest pretty quickly.

I don’t like the 100% jump after the first level but I agree with you that it seems pretty standard nowadays....

 

[upNdown]

There are often blind increases that disturb me, but it's never the increase between levels one and two - big picture, those chips barely matter.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I don’t like the 100% jump after the first level but I agree with you that it seems pretty standard nowadays....

The problem is if you start with 25/50 then your only two options are to go to 50/100. This lets you use 25/100/500/1000 denomination chips. Or iIf you go to something like 25/50 then 30/60 or 40/80 you have to also use $5 chips. Then you might as well start at 5/10. It just starts getting messier with lots of small denomination chips in play IMO and it just means you have to have even more chips available.

 

[upNdown]

The problem is if you start with 25/50 then your only two options are to go to 50/100. This lets you use 25/100/500/1000 denomination chips. Or iIf you go to something like 25/50 then 30/60 or 40/80 you have to also use $5 chips. Then you might as well start at 5/10. It just starts getting messier with lots of small denomination chips in play IMO and it just means you have to have even more chips available.

You can always go 50/75. But like I said, as long as the stacks are somewhat deep, i don't worry too much about early level increases.

 

[links_slayer]

The problem is if you start with 25/50 then your only two options are to go to 50/100. This lets you use 25/100/500/1000 denomination chips. Or iIf you go to something like 25/50 then 30/60 or 40/80 you have to also use $5 chips. Then you might as well start at 5/10. It just starts getting messier with lots of small denomination chips in play IMO and it just means you have to have even more chips available.

BB doesn't HAVE to be 2x the SB

You could always do 25/50, 50/75, 50/100, etc.if you are overly concerned about the 100% BB jump between L1 and L2. You could even start at 25/25 if you wanted...

 

[Steve Birrer]

Ok you guys are correct. But I have enough trouble with my group keeping the blinds straight. I can't imagine how much fun it would be if we started with off normal SB and BB ratios....LOL

 

[rowlin]

Assuming a fixed 2x BB/SB ratio, I think doubling the starting stacks and beginning at 50/100 should eliminate the need to ever double the blinds from one level to the next.

And you get more chips.

MORE. CHIPS.

I want more chips.

 

[BGinGA]

The problem is if you start with 25/50 then your only two options are to go to 50/100.

Rubbish. Nothing wrong with 25/50 followed by 25/75 and then 50/100. Keeps the increases consistent from level to level, and avoids an unnecessary 100% increase of the blinds.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Rubbish. Nothing wrong with 25/50 followed by 25/75 and then 50/100. Keeps the increases consistent from level to level, and avoids an unnecessary 100% increase of the blinds.

Well ok sure you can do that. And there are other ways to handle it too....stay 25/50 for several levels. None of which are standard approaches and the point of the discussion was that the OP is wanting to change the setup without causing too much disruption.

 

[BGinGA]

You need to read more around here. 25/75 is much more common than you think.

 

[abby99]

I wonder whether this has to do with the early WSOP main events where players bought in for $5K (the first year) or $10K and received the same amount in chips. For a 5K or 10K starting stack, an initial 25/50 blind makes sense. Some things just stick around because they work.

 

[moose]

It's because counting by ones sucks.

Counting by ones is good for rocket launches and the last seconds of the NBA finals and that's about it.