Tourney How many big blinds ideal for re-entry at cutoff? (1 Viewer)

[StackemHigh]

Is there a guideline as to how many big blinds a player should have if they’re re-entering at the cutoff period?

Looking to do a structure for 2-3 table tourney (18-30 ppl) starting with 4 levels of 30 minutes each, then a break/rebuy cutoff before the start of level 5.
Is there an ideal amount of big blinds (chips) a player should have when re-entering?

Total tourney duration is approximately 7-8 hours and hoping to find a balance of solid play vs too many shoves shortly after re-entry period.

40, 50, 60bb+??

 

[crussader]

I've always made the re-buy identical to the starting stack.

 

[DarPodo]

At least 20 bigs, no more than 50. My structure has a 1/2 stack rebuy option and you would get 33 bigs immediately following the break and closing of rebuy period.

 

[Poker Zombie]

In similar threads, most people agree that 20BB is the least that they would rebuy.

Because of timing of breaks and color-ups, my players may rebuy and get as little as 18BB, and it doesn't seem to be a concern.

 

[BGinGA]

I shoot for 30bb at cut-off (minimum 50bb is better if the structure allows for it), but that's mostly based on personal preference and what I consider to be a workable stack. 20bb or less pretty much hinders one's ability to play regular poker, and is very rarely a good purchase value.

 

[StackemHigh]

Good helpful replies, thank you (y) :thumbsup:

I suppose the duration of game and amount of players are big factors. Given that our 8-hour game starts mid-afternoon and on weekends, I prefer the 50-60bb route, for the sake of "value" and more importantly (at least to me), greater post-flop playability.

I had come across some posts mentioning 20bb which prompted my post. I do understand that thinking though, especially with time constraints on shorter weeknight games.

 

[fieldsy]

Is there a guideline as to how many big blinds a player should have if they’re re-entering at the cutoff period?

Looking to do a structure for 2-3 table tourney (18-30 ppl) starting with 4 levels of 30 minutes each, then a break/rebuy cutoff before the start of level 5.
Is there an ideal amount of big blinds (chips) a player should have when re-entering?

Total tourney duration is approximately 7-8 hours and hoping to find a balance of solid play vs too many shoves shortly after re-entry period.

40, 50, 60bb+??

It sort of depends on whether or not you want to encourage rebuys. In general I'm in favor of the 20-25 BB range. I tend to emulate professionally-run live tournament structures where I can, and I would say most casinos and tournament series allow late entry/re-entry up until the starting stack equates to around 15-25 BBs. If the cutoff is when a starting stack is worth 50 BBs, it may be a good deal for a re-entering player (they get plenty of play on the new stack), but you probably won't get many rebuys because few people will bust that early. There's just not a lot of blind pressure at that stage of the tournament, so your bust-outs will mostly be cooler situations. I personally like to encourage rebuys, since they add money to the pot, and my players generally ask for them. It may not be an optimal play to hop back in with 20 or fewer BBs, but I still have plenty of guys do it every time.

And as for the time-constrained weeknight games, it may seem counterintuitive but I think having rebuys well into the structure has very little effect on the ultimate time to completion of the tournament. In my experience, in those quick tournaments (20 minute levels) we usually get to a winner when there's something like 25BBs in play total. So if I have 12 players with 10k starting stacks, if there are no rebuys I have 120k in play, and the tournament will probably wrap at the 2000/4000 or 3000/6000 level. If I have 6 rebuys, that puts me up to 180k in play, and maybe I finish up between the 3000/6000 and 4000/8000 level. So all those rebuys really only makes one level of difference (20 minutes) to the overall tournament. It generally just creates a phase of the tournament after rebuys close when there are still a lot of players but average stack size is pretty short, so you may get a lot of bust-outs in short order rather than a gradual flow. But that doesn't bother me and doesn't seem to bother my players.

 

[BRMLOL]

Original starting stack!

 

[AWenger]

Good info. I'll try to remember this thread if I ever host a tournament again. I'm also in the 'use same starting stack for rebuys' camp, but that just means the decision is what level to cut off the rebuy period at, and look at how many BB will the stack be at the next level or 2 after the rebuy period ends.

Looking to do a structure for 2-3 table tourney (18-30 ppl) starting with 4 levels of 30 minutes each, then a break/rebuy cutoff before the start of level 5.
Is there an ideal amount of big blinds (chips) a player should have when re-entering?
Total tourney duration is approximately 7-8 hours and hoping to find a balance of solid play vs too many shoves shortly after re-entry period.

I suppose the duration of game and amount of players are big factors. Given that our 8-hour game starts mid-afternoon and on weekends, I prefer the 50-60bb route, for the sake of "value" and more importantly (at least to me), greater post-flop playability.

I've always liked rebuy tournaments, to me, one benefit is it's kind of an insurance policy if someone gets knocked out after suffering an early bad beat.

As @fieldsy also mentioned, one possible unintended consequence of setting the cutoff at the 50-60 BB range, is people will generally have very playable stacks, so there could be fewer people who would even need to rebuy. Just looking at a T10,000 tournament where the blinds go from 100-200 (starting stack is 50 BB), to 150-300 (33 BB), then 200-400 (25 BB), I'd probably like the chance to rebuy at any of these levels, and I probably would.

It might also work well to set the rebuy period as the same level as when a color up of chips happens (which would probably be at the end of the 150-300 in a T10,000 without antes).

 

[Anthony Martino]

To those saying "original starting stack", I think you're looking at this wrong. Yes, rebuys generally provide the original starting stack.

The question is what is the cutoff period for rebuys so that it makes sense to buy in for the original starting stack.

Let's say blinds start at 50/100 and the starting stack is 30,000 chips. That means each player starts with 300 bb.

If the rebuy period ends and the next blind level is 500/1000 then players are rebuying to have 30 bb's.

However if the rebuy period ends and the blinds are 1500/3000 then each player is only getting 10 bb's.

A local room I play at had a guaranteed tourney (the guarantee was exceeded by 50%, so no issue there) and rebuys were supposed to end at lvl 8. However halfway through level 8 they announced rebuys were extended through level 12!

I don't remember the exact structure, but it was something like blinds of 2K/4K at level 12 and you were buying a 20K stack, so 5 bigs. And there was likely an ante involved which further reduced the viability of your starting stack at that point.

I agree with others you really want rebuys to give the player 30 bb's so they have more options than just shoving all in preflop. However I still prefer old school freezeouts without rebuys. Everyone gets the same stack, you bust, you're out.

 

[StackemHigh]

To those saying "original starting stack", I think you're looking at this wrong. Yes, rebuys generally provide the original starting stack.

The question is what is the cutoff period for rebuys so that it makes sense to buy in for the original starting stack.

Let's say blinds start at 50/100 and the starting stack is 30,000 chips. That means each player starts with 300 bb.

If the rebuy period ends and the next blind level is 500/1000 then players are rebuying to have 30 bb's.

However if the rebuy period ends and the blinds are 1500/3000 then each player is only getting 10 bb's.

Anthony Martino, thanks for that ^^^. I meant to say something similar.

 

[StackemHigh]

FWIW, I've been targeting the 50bb level as the cutoff, which is usually the end of level 4/break.
And yes, full starting stack, and re-entry amount the same as the original buy-in.

I like freezeouts as well for better play. What's been working well for us is allowing only 1 re-buy/re-entry, just to buffer the early coolers, especially for those that have a longer drive.
We also offer the option of stack surrender (vs felted) and rebuy, for a full start stack at cutoff.

 

[Poker Zombie]

FWIW, I've been targeting the 50bb level as the cutoff, which is usually the end of level 4/break.
And yes, full starting stack, and re-entry amount the same as the original buy-in.

I like freezeouts as well for better play. What's been working well for us is allowing only 1 re-buy/re-entry, just to buffer the early coolers, especially for those that have a longer drive.
We also offer the option of stack surrender (vs felted) and rebuy, for a full start stack at cutoff.

You hit on a few points I was about to make.

• Limit rebuys - This prevents deep pockets from running over those players that are spending their entire disposable bankroll on a single buy-in, but protects the player that drove for an hour from being coolered on the first hand. 11% of my games limit players to a single rebuy. Only the end of the year Zombie Poker Classic is done as a freeze-out, and that game has a microstakes game afterwards, and each eliminated player gets $3 in free cash to enter the microstakes game.
• Stack surrender - This allows short stacks to rebuy without jamming with air on the last hand before break. I personally find the felted rule to be dumb, as short stacks are not just hoping to get lucky, but they are giving chips to their opponents. Some people will still jam, that's their prerogative.
• Rebuy ends after break - we have a lot of couples. Spouses may not be sitting at the same table, so on break they can discuss if they want to surrender/rebuy or just play with what they have. If one is doing well, the other will frequently surrender/reload, but having a break to discuss it really helps to make a calm financial decision.
• Rebuy bonus - I don't particularly "recommend" this, but it has worked extremely well in my group, so I put it out there for others to chew on. Our rebuys give a player starting stack +10%. This creates a little more incentive to rebuy, and a little more incentive to surrender/reload, because you are getting a little more bang for the buck. The 10% bonus does not create an unlevel field, and even in two PCF meet-ups where it was used, I didn't see or hear any dissention to the rule.

 

[Wils]

I still prefer old school freezeouts without rebuys. Everyone gets the same stack, you bust, you're out.

Totally agree. A freeze-out is a great leveller.

 

[SendThatStack]

You hit on a few points I was about to make.

• Stack surrender - This allows short stacks to rebuy without jamming with air on the last hand before break. I personally find the felted rule to be dumb, as short stacks are not just hoping to get lucky, but they are giving chips to their opponents. Some people will still jam, that's their prerogative.

What about just allowing rebuys at or below x amount of chips? I am thinking of doing this for my tourneys at the start stack. So if start stack is t5000 you can rebuy at t5000 or less.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Anyone worth their salt would immediately rebuy. T10,000 in a T5000 tournament is incredibly +EV. One of the math Gurus (@DrStrange ) can probably tell you the math, but instant use of a rebuy (or starting stack -1 chip) makes the game 2x as expensive with no rebuys remaining, and puts the players with a single buy-in at an immediate disadvantage.

The next thing you might consider (because I have walked this path you are on), is 50% starting stack can rebuy. Problem is, this can slow the game as players count their stacks to see when they can rebuy. At least with the surrender rule, the stack counting happens during break. As host, you don't need to recount their stack, you just remove it from the table, and give them a chip tube (or ziplock bag).

 

[SendThatStack]

My games go with unlimited rebuys in the rebuy period. The guys who instant rebuy have an advantage but the guys who dont get a shot at a big prizepool for cheap.

 

[DrStrange]

My math is different from many.

For me, I play better in a cash game than in a tournament setting. Getting knocked out early often turns out to be +EV for me if there are cash tables running. So rebuys and add-ons take some pondering for me. Don't get me wrong, I love to win tournaments. But I'd make more money at the side games because of the skill differential.

Remember the ultimate currency is how much fun you are having -=- DrStrange

PS rebuys late in the event are generally a bad idea unless something makes them sweet. Taking an add-on is a wicked complicated decision influenced by the rest of the field, your relative stack size & skill and the price of the add-on. Early rebuy is often a good idea, more so if there are no side games going yet.

PPS I just recalled playing in a crazy structure where there were distasteful, expensive rebuys but the add-on was a "match the biggest stack for the same low price" deal. A player with a single chip at the add-on was promoted to half the size of the chip leader (assuming the chip leader also rebought to double his stack). Mostly made the entire pre-add-on part of the event moot except for those who had to rebuy.