Tourney Exposing cards - ruling? (1 Viewer)

[Pinesol13]

This situation happened in last nights game. I don't remember the details as far as bet sizes and specific cards, but here's the synopsis.

Player A on the button raises preflop, Player B in the big blind calls. Heads up going to the flop.

Player B checks the flop, Player A bets and Player B calls.

Player B checks the turn, Player A bets and Player B calls.

after the river Player B does not check but just turns over both his cards, showing top pair. Player A objects to Player B exposing his cards before he's had the chance to act. After some back and forth I rule that Player B exposing his cards does not make his hand dead and that Player A has the option to check or raise like normal. Player A angrily folds.

My guess is that Player A had Ace high and he was bluffing the whole way. When he saw that Player B had top pair he knew he couldn't bluff him off it.

I have no idea if my ruling was correct at all. Would it be different in a tournament vs a cash game?

 

[CdnBeerLover]

For tournaments, our league adopted the PokerTDA ruleset with some documented exceptions. In this case, rule 68 appears to cover it:

68: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding
Exposing cards with action pending may result in a penalty but not a dead hand. Any penalty begins at the end of the hand. When folding, cards should be pushed forward low to the table, not deliberately exposed or tossed high (“helicoptered”)

So, the ruling was correct, at least for a tournament. For a cash game, I defer to others, as we don't play a lot of cash.

 

[WedgeRock]

Generally, allowed in cash if heads up. If multi-way or if in a tournament, discouraged because it affects others. Generally a warning, tho, not a dead hand.

 

[Turntwo]

Since we track points and want to eliminate any potential collusion or impact on a player not in the hand, our rules state that any exposed hands are dead in our tournaments. In our cash games exposed cards are not a problem.
At the beginning of each tournament we do ensure everyone is aware of the rule that a hand is dead if cards are exposed.

 

[DoubleEagle]

In a tournament, never a dead hand but always a penalty. Cash games, never a dead hand, but a stern warning and if it continues ejection from the game.

 

[Pinesol13]

Thanks for the info everyone, glad I got it right

 

[Beakertwang]

In a tournament, never a dead hand but always a penalty. Cash games, never a dead hand, but a stern warning and if it continues ejection from the game.

What kind of penalty? Sit out a round?

 

[SixSpeedFury]

What kind of penalty? Sit out a round?

Depends on the host, but this is the de facto penalty.

 

[DoubleEagle]

What kind of penalty? Sit out a round?

Depends. I have seen a one hand penalty when it was clearly an accident. One round is typical.

 

[WedgeRock]

What kind of penalty? Sit out a round?

Usually a one orbit penalty. Never rule out nut punches, tho...

 

[Meddler2]

I thought when heads-up players could basically show each other cards anytime they wanted.

 

[JustinInMN]

I thought when heads-up players could basically show each other cards anytime they wanted.

I am partial to this rule as well, but it is a deviation from the TDA standard, so it should be announced in some fashion if in use.

Absent such an announcement a warning at minimum up to a one round penalty.

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

RRoP V. 11, § 3 - General Poker Rules, Betting and Raising, Rule 11:

Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding.

RRoP V. 11, § 3 - General Poker Rules, Irregularities, Rule 12:

"...A card that is flashed by a player will
play..."

No mention of out of turn or exposing in "Dead Hands" of same section.

I'd give stern warning and rule that the exposed hand cannot bet or raise, only call, check, or fold.

 

[Frogzilla]

Definitely not a dead hand. Penalty after the hand (sit out an orbit) if it was egregious, especially if multi-way.

Heads up I will never complain about an opponent showing me his cards. Helps me out a ton.

 

[WedgeRock]

I thought when heads-up players could basically show each other cards anytime they wanted.

In a tournament, the other players may not be in the hand, but they have an interest in the result, especially as it gets closer to the bubble.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

I think the rule that should always be followed is don't expose your cards...for any reason. And why would you? It makes no sense.
Obviously in this situation the player had a brain fart but that's too bad for him. Pay attention. Be pissed. It was his hands and his hands only on the cards. Tough way to learn a valuable lesson.
You made the right call. Look at it this way. Why should player A lose out on a pot because player B wasn't paying attention?

 

[Taghkanic]

Good info above.

My one question: Why did Player A feel he could no longer bluff once he saw Player B’s top pair?

If you see someone’s cards, and they have anything less than the absolute nuts, that often becomes a great bluffing opportunity... You’re saying, “I can beat that.”

(Then I guess some leveling war could ensue where Player B then thinks there is more chance he’s being bluffed, but...)

Maybe Player B has a rep in this game where he will never fold top pair? Otherwise IDGI.

 

[Pinesol13]

Good info above.

My one question: Why did Player A feel he could no longer bluff once he saw Player B’s top pair?

If you see someone’s cards, and they have anything less than the absolute nuts, that often becomes a great bluffing opportunity... You’re saying, “I can beat that.”

(Then I guess some leveling war could ensue where Player B then thinks there is more chance he’s being bluffed, but...)

Maybe Player B has a rep in this game where he will never fold top pair? Otherwise IDGI.

No, I completely agree to you. We were discussing the situation later in the night after Player B left and I told him he should've kept betting. I think he was just annoyed at what happened and gave up.

 

[SendThatStack]

My guess is that Player A had Ace high and he was bluffing the whole way. When he saw that Player B had top pair he knew he couldn't bluff him off it.

So player B saved money then. Why did player A show his hand? Scared to check/call so he tables his hand for pot control???

 

[Pinesol13]

So player B saved money then. Why did player A show his hand? Scared to check/call so he tables his hand for pot control???

Ok, so I didn't tell the complete story because I thought it might affect people's answers.

This was my regular weekly game with 4 friends. We were hanging out on my front porch having a beer before we started the game. One of my neighbors (I've hung out with him a couple of times, nice guy.) was walking by my house and joined us for a beer on the porch. He was walking home from a party down the street and was quite drunk. I didn't want to bring up that we were going to play poker, but somebody else did and he of course said "I'll play!". Every hand he was making mistakes, not putting in enough chips to call a bet, had to remind him to put in his blinds everytime, never knew when the action was on him.

The reason he showed his hand was b/c he was blackout drunk and had no clue what was going on. After about 10 hands I was getting prepared to give him his buy in back and tell him he had to go home, luckily after the 11th hand he was at least conscious enough to realize it for himself and he left.

 

[joeyshin]

 

[JustinInMN]

I didn't want to bring up that we were going to play poker, but somebody else did and he of course said "I'll play!".

Well hopefully that guy learned a lesson.

 

[justsomedude]

I thought when heads-up players could basically show each other cards anytime they wanted.

+1

I haven no problem if some nut wants to constantly show his cards when head-up. It's ultimately a moronic and -EV move. And I'm sure other players will gladly take his money.

 

[Frogzilla]

If you see someone’s cards, and they have anything less than the absolute nuts, that often becomes a great bluffing opportunity

My very limited experience is folks tend to call down. It’s happened so few times though. I would check back and muck vs top pair.

Also, stud variants have plenty of exposed cards and people will bluff catch.

 

[ekricket]

I think you ruled right.
I would have let player B bet if he wanted since he hadn’t declared any action yet.


So here’s a variant I run into at casinos, how would you rule at your home game?

In this scenario it’s not player B who turns over his cards, but rather Player A.
River card comes, player B checks, and player A then turns his cards over without saying anything.

This is consistently ruled exposing your cards since no action was declared (either verbally or by betting or a tapping motion to check). Even though it’s player A’s turn, he has to declare his action somehow before exposing his cards. Otherwise it’s an angle to get player B to show, then player A can claim he hasn’t acted yet.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think you ruled right.
I would have let player B bet if he wanted since he hadn’t declared any action yet.


So here’s a variant I run into at casinos, how would you rule at your home game?

In this scenario it’s not player B who turns over his cards, but rather Player A.
River card comes, player B checks, and player A then turns his cards over without saying anything.

This is consistently ruled exposing your cards since no action was declared (either verbally or by betting or a tapping motion to check). Even though it’s player A’s turn, he has to declare his action somehow before exposing his cards. Otherwise it’s an angle to get player B to show, then player A can claim he hasn’t acted yet.

I'd rule Player A has checked back and we're now at showdown.

 

[BGinGA]

I'd rule Player A has checked back and we're now at showdown.

^ This. And a warning.