Tourney Etiquette Question (with a poll) RE: Calling the Clock (1 Viewer)

Calling a clock during a break - breach of etiquette or not?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • No

    Votes: 45 91.8%

  • Total voters
    49

Moxie Mike

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Scenario: $100 Green Chip Bounty Tournament at Gun Lake Casino. Really just looking for neutral perspectives - I think I may be too close to the situation to form an objective opinion.

Me: Stack ~60k
Villian: Stack ~41k

Blinds: 600-1200 Last hand of the level - break begins as river hits the board.

Villain limps UTG. Action folds around to me where I raise to 5000 from the C/O with AQo (suits are in general irrelevant to this conversation). Blinds fold, cutoff calls.

Villain checks a flop of Q-9-9; I bet 8000. He pauses then calls.

Turn is a King. Action goes check/check.

River is an offsuit 3. Villain shoves for 28000.

I begin to think as the rest of the players leave the table for break. After about 2 minutes, Villain calls the clock. Floor comes over and begins the 30 second countdown.

Thoughts? Is calling the clock at a point when the tanking player is not holding up the game appropriate?

I'll post a spoiler and my thoughts later on tonight or tomorrow.
 
I think it's a shit move but in reality it's a good move if you're trying to fluster the competition. Even if he loses he kind of wins...
Etiquette aside (it's still a dick move) he has that right. And when played properly can be a game changer.
But this is from a guy who hates anybody calling the clock.
 
I think it's a shit move but in reality it's a good move if you're trying to fluster the competition. Even if he loses he kind of wins...
Etiquette aside (it's still a dick move) he has that right. And when played properly can be a game changer.

I mean he was obviously tanking long enough for the floor to be called and the dealer to agree that enough time had been taken to justify a clock. I just don’t understand what you could figure out in minute 3 or 4 that you can’t figure out in the first couple minutes...
 
Really? You've never been in a situation where you think youre 99% sure and then spend a minute or two leaning the other way? And let's not forget this hand isn't for table scraps.
 
2 minutes seems too quick really to be calling clock when your tourney life is on the line. Unless you are a regular tanker, in which case he might just be annoyed at you.

Its a tough spot to call with your hand, you beat nothing, which may be why he's shoved. But then calling clock makes him seem weak, so I think that's what he's trying to make it look like. Fold
 
I wouldn't say the fact that it was at a break changes much. 2 minutes is pretty short before calling clock though.
 
I wouldn't say the fact that it was at a break changes much. 2 minutes is pretty short before calling clock though.

OP says “after about two minutes” but he’s also a biased narrator. Even if it was only two minutes, which is probably a little quick if this is a one time tanking issue, most casino tourneys have 15-20 minute levels. If everybody takes that long for every difficult decision you’re talking one orbit every two levels. Then again people who act slow are one of my pet peeves, so I might also be a little biased.
 
I missed the fact that it's at a casino, makes it a little more reasonable. Still not something I would do.
 
2 min clock calling is fine. And though I never call the clock while I’m in the hand (just let one of the other folks at the table do it), if they all left on break....
 
Poll question is confusing - player has every right to call clock.

It's not about whether he's within his rights to call the clock. It's about the fact that while on a break I'm not holding up the game
OP says “after about two minutes” but he’s also a biased narrator.

The break clock read '8:00' (down from 10:00) when the clock was called, so I know it'd been two mins.

If everybody takes that long for every difficult decision you’re talking one orbit every two levels. Then again people who act slow are one of my pet peeves, so I might also be a little biased.

I don't tank excessively. I can only think of one time in my life where I've had the clock called on me (and FWIW I was annoyed by it that time, too :)).

This wasn't an easy decision. This was against a player I have no memorable history with, and whom I've yet to see get out of line. There are several ways I could be beat in this spot, but I could also have had the winning hand.

What could he really shove here with after limping pre and check-calling the flop? Does he really want a call here? How does he perceive my turn check? Why isn't he concerned that I might be slowplaying QQ or KK?

These types of situation don't come up once per orbit.

.
 
You are entitled to tank longer because it is break but your opponent isn't entitled to his break? I don't get it.

It's not about entitlement - but even if it were is a player entitled to a break? They can get up and walk away from the table anytime they want. By that logic the break clock shouldn't begin until the completion of the last hand of the level.

It's about having ample time to make the best decision a player can make. Isn't that what poker is about?
 
It's not about entitlement - but even if it were is a player entitled to a break? They can get up and walk away from the table anytime they want. By that logic the break clock shouldn't begin until the completion of the last hand of the level.

It's about having ample time to make the best decision a player can make. Isn't that what poker is about?

Your poll implies that the clock shouldn't be called during a break which is ridiculous. If you think 2 min is insufficient then word your poll that way. Whether you are on break or not is immaterial.

Anyone can walk away from the table anytime except if they are in a hand. You are holding your opponent at the table. If you use the break to make your decision and your opponent ends up missing hands because now he has to run to the bathroom or get food how is that fair?
 
Your poll implies that the clock shouldn't be called during a break which is ridiculous. If you think 2 min is insufficient then word your poll that way. Whether you are on break or not is immaterial.

Anyone can walk away from the table anytime except if they are in a hand. You are holding your opponent at the table. If you use the break to make your decision and your opponent ends up missing hands because now he has to run to the bathroom or get food how is that fair?

What is the purpose of calling the clock? It's to keep the game moving along, not a tool to be deployed in the interest of personal convenience.

Think of it another way - have you ever folded a marginal hand you might otherwise have gotten involved with because it was the last hand before the break? I know I have. The point I'm trying to make is that if he was so worried about maximizing his break time, he shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. He put me to a tough decision - and it's not as it I was sitting there with air or have a tendency of excessive tanking. This was a pivotal point in the tournament for me.
 
What is the purpose of calling the clock? It's to keep the game moving along, not a tool to be deployed in the interest of personal convenience.

Think of it another way - have you ever folded a marginal hand you might otherwise have gotten involved with because it was the last hand before the break? I know I have. The point I'm trying to make is that if he was so worried about maximizing his break time, he shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. He put me to a tough decision - and it's not as it I was sitting there with air or have a tendency of excessive tanking. This was a pivotal point in the tournament for me.


Your response, even hours (days?) after this happened shows that sometimes it's worth calling the clock. Your entitled to take as long as you want and all of your opponents, including the one in the hand, are entitled to call the clock when they think you've taken too long. He's also entitled to his break as well. He can't just walk away from the hand as you indicated as his hand would get mucked.

I'm used to be the never call the clock person. Nowadays I'm probably one of the faster ones to call it. All the tanking needs to stop (not directed at you OP, but poker players in general).
 
The poll results overwhelmingly tell me that I've over-reacted to the situation. Thanks to everyone for sharing your perspective.

Here's how it played out:

The floor came over and began counting down the 30 seconds. I continued to ponder the hand but never could make a decision. The clock hit zero and my hand was killed.

As the pot was awarded to the Villian, I told him I didn't appreciate him calling the clock after 2 minutes in a spot where I wasn't really holding up the game.

"I just had to take a piss, man", was his response.

"You were within the rules and your rights to call the clock, but I'm also within my rights to tell you how I feel about it", I replied.

Villian then - in an apparent effort to extend an olive branch - digs his cards out of the muck and tables the :8h::9h: for flopped trips.

"Nice hand, thank you for showing", I said.

"I don't think you mean that", he said indignantly as he left the poker room.

I chatted with the dealer briefly as he walked away - who agreed that calling the clock in this particular spot - while within the rules - might have been a little bit out of line.

I made a point to catch up with the Villian a few mins later outside the poker room a minute or so before play resumed. I shook his hand and told him 'nice hand' once again, and smiled as I said 'I'm over it - let's play some cards'. We were cool after that. Anecdotally, his green bounty chip is about the 5th one from the bottom in this stack :)

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You obviously still believe that because it is a break you get extra time and your story relates that your opponent felt you were being self-entitled as well.
 
You obviously still believe that because it is a break you get extra time and your story relates that your opponent felt you were being self-entitled as well.

No one is entitled to anything. This applies to breaks as much as it applies to time to make a decision.

I have my opinion - which is not a 'belief' and is open to adjustment based on new information and perspective. I said in my OP that I might be too close to this to be objective - which is why I posted this thread. I'm not looking for validation. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I still maintain my position that the spirit of 'calling the clock' should be applied in terms of keeping the game moving.
 
Ive never tanked for more than a minute or so in my life, so it certainly annoys me when people do it for too long. That being said I'm a cash game player, so it doesn't happen often anyway.

I've never called clock on anyone yet, but having just experienced the mad rush for the toilets during the short breaks at the wsop, I'd actually be more inclined to call it if I felt I wasn't going to get time to take a piss during the break.

I still think 2 minutes is an acceptable tank in a big spot, but I kinda get his point too. Imo 2.5 mins is more than sufficient to make any decision.
 
The clock is still running btw. It seems like you would have not got upset if tourney hands were still being dealt.

What is the dividing line for you? How many players so you have to be inconveniencing before you act faster? Three handed on the river? Four? Five?

If your story relates that the dude went all in, then the tourney went on break and he immediately called the clock then you might have a beef. If you feel 2 min into the break was not enough then say it but don't keep saying that you aren't holding up the tourney so you should get more time. Dick move on your part to complain to your opponent and really disrespectful. No wonder he was pissed. (Figuratively and literally).
 
Whether you are on break or not is immaterial.
^^ This. Under the current rules, a player may take as much time as they wish. And under those same rules, another player may call for a clock if they think it's taking too long. When the break occurs has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Also a perfect example of why a shot clock and time cards should become the default tournament SOP. #endtanking
 
The clock is still running btw. It seems like you would have not got upset if tourney hands were still being dealt.

Calling the clock is far more appropriate when the tournament clock is actually affecting short stacks. During a break this is not the case.

What is the dividing line for you? How many players so you have to be inconveniencing before you act faster? Three handed on the river? Four? Five?

Sorry but I don't follow. I don't know how to respond to this.

If your story relates that the dude went all in, then the tourney went on break and he immediately called the clock then you might have a beef. If you feel 2 min into the break was not enough then say it but don't keep saying that you aren't holding up the tourney so you should get more time.

I'd like you to quote any of my posts from this thread where I explicitly have said 'I should get more time'.

Dick move on your part to complain to your opponent and really disrespectful. No wonder he was pissed. (Figuratively and literally).

I appreciate your perspective.
 
^^ This. Under the current rules, a player may take as much time as they wish. And under those same rules, another player may call for a clock if they think it's taking too long. When the break occurs has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Also a perfect example of why a shot clock and time cards should become the default tournament SOP. #endtanking

I didn't in this instance and as a rule I don't tank unnecessarily. In it's own bit of irony, him calling the clock pushed me toward the correct decision.

Although I agree that you're correct, I think we're a long way from 'shot clocks and time cards' being standard procedure in low-end tournament settings. The logistics alone create many challenges. Casinos don't want controversy, but aren't always willing to invest in the infrastructure necessary to avoid it.
 
I think we're a long way from 'shot clocks and time cards' being standard procedure in low-end tournament settings.
The same sentiments surrounded many of the current tournament 'standards' before they were implemented. Most have first appeared in high-dollar events, before eventually being adopted almost universally. I suspect it's not as far off as you might think.
 
Even if it was only two minutes, which is probably a little quick if this is a one time tanking issue, most casino tourneys have 15-20 minute levels.
I agree, 2 minutes to call the clock in a regular tournament doesn't bother me. If we were talking 1-2 hour levels I would say more leeway is in order. The proximity of the break doesn't matter. Villian is entitled to a break too and has already lost 20% of it to this hand.

who agreed that calling the clock in this particular spot - while within the rules - might have been a little bit out of line.

"Might have been a bit out of line" is probably all a dealer can say if the disagrees with you. It's a really soft statement.

Btw if he called clock he probably had it.

I don't play a ton of tournaments, but I did have the clock called on me in a spot 2 tables from the money.

Villian on my immediate left, button on the right. I had 3 bet a villian pre with 77, heads up, flop came 8-6-4 rainbow, villian donk shoves for about 2/3 of my stack. I tanked 2-3 mins for sure before he called the clock (30 min levels iirc), I was kind of relieved because I didn't know how to decide, but before the final countdown i settled on a call (figuring I beat all bluffs and I was dead to nothing).

Villian showed 55. I ran out clean, and busted him. Went on to win the tournament.

We see everyone tank for 4-5 mins a decision on the Wsop. But that is a 2 hour level tournament. A different ettiquette is required for the smaller shorter tournaments in our local casinos.
 
No action on the turn and the off suit 3 is a brick. He hold the nuts and called a clock. I do not see anything wrong here if you see the hand from HIS perspective.
 

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