Tourney Estimate (ST)Tournament Duration (1 Viewer)

[ExileExistence]

Next week, I will be hosting my very first poker tournament and although I made sure that various other parameters fit, I am not so sure regarding the tournament length and request your advice and experience <3

Here is my setting​

• No-Limit Texas Hold'em
• Single Table Tournament ~ 7 or 8 players
• T25 based 25/50 SB/BB
• 10k Starting Stack (so 200xBB - 12x25, 12x100, 7x500, 5x1000 or 8x25, 8x100, 4x500, 7x1000)
• A single rebuy per player until the end of the fifth level/break
• No add-ons
• Payout Structure: 1st=50%, 2nd=30%, 3rd=20% of the total Buy-In
• Blind Level Duration: 15 or 20min.
• Blind Structure:

So I am aiming for a tournament duration around 3-4 hours. I've read some posts where people consider this to be the sweet spot, especially for a casual home game with friends (where some are even new to poker). I don't want it to be a super turbo: it should feel like a real tournament, but on the other hand, I don't want people to get bored or tired after 3,5 hours of play.

So first of all, I know that the duration always depends on the specific situation and mood of the players. And I also know that there are several factors which can influence the duration like:

• Starting Stack
• Blind Structure/Increases
• Blind Level Duration
• Introduction of Antes

Is there a formula?​

But I was wondering, is there a formula that helps to estimate the duration? While searching the web, I found something like StartingStack * #Players * 5% = Last Big Blind, where the percentage might vary between 4% and 7%.

In my case this would mean 10k*7 players * 5% = 3500 which means the end is reached after blind level 13. For 20min Blind Levels, this would however lead me to a net-playing time of 4h20min. Reducing Blind levels to 15min leaves me with 3h15min which might be more suitable.

A similar formula was StartingStack * #Players * 5% = SB+BB of the last level. In my case again 3500 but at the end of level 11 or 12 instead of 13.

My thoughts on the tournament settings​

Starting Stack: This variable has obviously a huge influence on the tournament duration. For a T25 based 25/50 tournament, I thought 5k Starting Stack is for faster games, 10k is regular and 20k is extensive/for longer nights. So I was aiming for 10k which represents 200xBB and allows for more strategic game. Also I assume people like to have rather more than less chips.​

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Blind Structure: I consider the above blind structure already as "nearly optimal". It is very similar to those used by Youtube Poker Hosts and what I've come by here on PCF. Furthermore, from what I've read, it seems like Blind Increases of 33%-50% are considered to be perfect. So let me hear your thoughts on this, but I don't think I need to change this structure in order to adjust it for the game duration.​

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Blind Level Duration: So I know that everything between 15 and 30 minutes is fine, with 20 minute intervals considered to be the best. 30 will obviously be way too long and everything below 15 will be a super turbo. So I have to decide whether to use 15 or 20 minute intervals. Based on the above formula, I would have to go with 15min blind levels to achieve my 3-4 hours tournament. But I want to hear your opinion on this guys. Especially since faster blind levels make the game a bit "unsteady"?​

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Antes: So this might also influence the game duration significantly right? Chris Manzoni introduces Big Blind Antes after the first break. Although Antes around 10% of the BB are more casino standard, they are impractical when removing smaller denomination chips and also a bit complicated for the players. So I also consider to introduce Big Blind Antes in my game. What are your thoughts? For a Single Table Tournament, are they necessary at all? Would you introduce them already at level 6 or later?​

My question​

To break it down:

1. Has someone of you experienced a suitable formula to estimate the game duration?
2. Do you have any advice on my tournament setting? Especially regarding the Starting Stack, the Blind Level Duration and Antes?

Highly appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

[TheRealStephen12]

Formula: total chips/20 = final BB (usually 1-2 levels earlier). With rebuys, that’s 4500-5000, or level 14 at the latest.

Blinds and starting stack are fine at 15 minutes (15 minutes is slightly fast but you have a time constraint). You can save time by dropping the third break and coloring up some of the 500s early on the second break.

 

[QuietMaple]

I hosted my first tournament yesterday with similar constraints to you: I wanted it to end in 4 hours, all players were new to tournaments, and I had 9 players. I also allowed 1 rebuy per player. The main difference was that mine was a T1 based tournament. I used levels that decreased in length as the tournament progressed, which I thought worked well. The first level was 20 minutes and they decreased to 15 minutes. (starting stacks were 150BB. I had 2 rebuys, and ~7 players had an "on time arrival" bonus of 12.5BB)

Even with the variable length levels I'd say that the first couple levels still felt a little fast and the last couple felt a little long. We ended in level 13, and we were down to two players for the last couple levels. Here was the structure I used:

 

[JustinInMN]

But I was wondering, is there a formula that helps to estimate the duration? While searching the web, I found something like StartingStack * #Players * 5% = Last Big Blind, where the percentage might vary between 4% and 7%.

In my case this would mean 10k*7 players * 5% = 3500 which means the end is reached after blind level 13. For 20min Blind Levels, this would however lead me to a net-playing time of 4h20min. Reducing Blind levels to 15min leaves me with 3h15min which might be more suitable.

Yeah we pass around the 20BB rule on PCF and in my experience, it's a fairly accurate predictor of the latest possible last level when total chips in play are <= 20 BB.

You do need to estimate rebuys to apply this properly, a 50% re-entry rate is usually an over-estimate, especially since you are limiting rebuys to one per player, but if we use that, that means 12 stacks @ 10K in play for a total of 120K. Divide that by 20 to get 6K. So the tournament will end on or before the level where the BB reaches 6K.

In your proposed structure that's level 14. So at 20 minutes per level that that puts you on 4h20m-4h40m total plus breaks. At 15 Minutes per level, that puts you on 3h15-3h30m plus breaks.

I think level length should be set such that most likely blinds will escalate after each seated player has had the button once. So figuring a 2 min per hand average 15 min is usually tight for full tables. Might be tolerable for 7-8 handed game. (Though I think a middle ground of 16-18 minute levels is reasonable as well.)

Even doing 16 minutes keeps you under 4h at 3h32m-3h46m plus breaks.

If the choice is between playing short levels or just cutting a level, I think level 10 is a good candidate to drop as well.

Bottom line, to predict tournament time you have 3 levers.
1) Length of level
2) Size of starting stack
3) Rate of increase between levels

Personally I think once you cut length of level to 2 minutes per player you should leave that lever alone and make changes with the other two levers.

But that's how you look at designing a tournament time.

Hope this helps.

 

[QuietMaple]

@JustinInMN , Does that 20BB rule assume there are antes in play? I imagine that would really have an effect, but maybe no? Would it be more accurate to say the tournament will end when the total chips in play are <= 20 * (BB + ante)?

 

[JustinInMN]

@JustinInMN , Does that 20BB rule assume there are antes in play? I imagine that would really have an effect, but maybe no? Would it be more accurate to say the tournament will end when the total chips in play are <= 20 * (BB + ante)?

No I would definitely adjust the formula with antes in play. With no antes the pot is seeded with 1.5BB, usually it only takes a couple raise situations to get both players all in this circumstance with only 20BB in play.

With antes the pot is seeded with 2.5BB (assuming BB-ante, your mileage may vary with individual antes of course.) so I think it's safe to inflate the 20BB rule by 60%, or assume the final level is with about 32BB in play. Maybe 30BB is a good rule of thumb in this instance for simplicity.

I think doubling it to a "40BB rule" is probably an overestimate as an adjustment, which would cause one to underestimate tournament length in a comparable fashion. I have seen 40BB stated elsewhere (and it's all together possible I have said that in the past before thinking about this) but I think estimating a "30BB rule" for tournaments with antes makes more sense.

 

[ExileExistence]

Here is a short update from my side since my first tournament took place a few days ago.

Starting Stack​

Choosing a starting stack of 12/12/7/5 instead of 8/8/6/6 was a very good choice, since people limped a lot, i.e. they always called the big blind to see the flop and never raised preflop. There was still a bit of change making, but a lot less than what would have happened with only 8x25s

Blind & Tournament Length​

There was only a single rebuy after the first 5 levels and we were 6 players, so 7x10k starting stacks = 70k in chips
Tournament ended at the end of level 11, so earlier than I expected since the formula leads to and expected end when the BB hits 20%*70k=14k. Reason is probably the playstyle and amateur level of everyone (much limping etc.)

The first 5 level were 20 minutes and I reduced the length then to 15 when I noticed that some people got a little bit tired and also wanted to leave in the near future. So 3 hours and 15-30 minutes (did not track the time in detail).

Keeping the first intervals to 20 minutes was definitly a good choice, since there was a lot of talking and questions in between, reducing the net play time and also the card shuffling took quite some time. Using a second card deck definitly helped to get more hands dealt while shuffling the other deck in parallel.

For the final heads-up in level 11, I then introduced the BB antes which resulted in a very fast end within the next 10 minutes, because the stack of my opponent was already very huge and those large antes ate my stack in 4 or 5 hands.

Antes?​

But this brings me to a final question: what do you guys think about antes? In my game, I did not feel the need of introducing them, since there was no external incentive needed for players to fight for the pot, since they often called and there were atleast 4 players seeing the flop anyway and early every hand reached the showdown.

But I already felt that this would speed up the whole tournament and is pretty standard in official casino tournaments.

Using a BB ante is rather common nowadays I think, probably because its simple and defnitily has an impact.

However, there would be also the option to use a Small Blind Ante which would not turbo as fast as the BB ante but I assume still with a good impact.

Or, more common in online games I guess, the 10% of the BB ante. Obviously a lot less impact and for this maybe too complicated to remind everyone to put the ante into the pot. Also not suitable for 25/50 game. But for my next tournament I plan to play a T100 game and instead of removing the 100 chips when reaching 1000/2000 Blinds, I could start introducing 10%BB antes (so 100/200), which can be perfectly covered when keeping the 100 chips in play.

So whats your opinion about antes? Do they improve the gameplay? What is your opinion about SB/BB/10%BB antes?

 

[DeeVee8]

Total chips in play * 5% will give you the sum of the blinds/antes when the tourney will end.

 

[JustinInMN]

Total chips in play * 5% will give you the sum of the blinds/antes when the tourney will end.

Yes and I would add this rule really is more of a "longest case scenario" than an average, ending a level or two early is more the norm.

 

[thePokerClub]

So whats your opinion about antes? Do they improve the gameplay? What is your opinion about SB/BB/10%BB antes?

Congrats on managing your first tourney, sounds like it went well.

At my tournament we do not have antes. Players like it that way because they play in other games where a BB ante is used for the entirety of the game.

Also, for me I don't mind skipping the added concern of whether ante was done correctly as the night progresses. Less is more sometimes.

 

[Gojira777]

Here is a short update from my side since my first tournament took place a few days ago.

Starting Stack​

Choosing a starting stack of 12/12/7/5 instead of 8/8/6/6 was a very good choice, since people limped a lot, i.e. they always called the big blind to see the flop and never raised preflop. There was still a bit of change making, but a lot less than what would have happened with only 8x25s

Blind & Tournament Length​

There was only a single rebuy after the first 5 levels and we were 6 players, so 7x10k starting stacks = 70k in chips
Tournament ended at the end of level 11, so earlier than I expected since the formula leads to and expected end when the BB hits 20%*70k=14k. Reason is probably the playstyle and amateur level of everyone (much limping etc.)

The first 5 level were 20 minutes and I reduced the length then to 15 when I noticed that some people got a little bit tired and also wanted to leave in the near future. So 3 hours and 15-30 minutes (did not track the time in detail).

Keeping the first intervals to 20 minutes was definitly a good choice, since there was a lot of talking and questions in between, reducing the net play time and also the card shuffling took quite some time. Using a second card deck definitly helped to get more hands dealt while shuffling the other deck in parallel.

For the final heads-up in level 11, I then introduced the BB antes which resulted in a very fast end within the next 10 minutes, because the stack of my opponent was already very huge and those large antes ate my stack in 4 or 5 hands.

Antes?​

But this brings me to a final question: what do you guys think about antes? In my game, I did not feel the need of introducing them, since there was no external incentive needed for players to fight for the pot, since they often called and there were atleast 4 players seeing the flop anyway and early every hand reached the showdown.

But I already felt that this would speed up the whole tournament and is pretty standard in official casino tournaments.

Using a BB ante is rather common nowadays I think, probably because its simple and defnitily has an impact.

However, there would be also the option to use a Small Blind Ante which would not turbo as fast as the BB ante but I assume still with a good impact.

Or, more common in online games I guess, the 10% of the BB ante. Obviously a lot less impact and for this maybe too complicated to remind everyone to put the ante into the pot. Also not suitable for 25/50 game. But for my next tournament I plan to play a T100 game and instead of removing the 100 chips when reaching 1000/2000 Blinds, I could start introducing 10%BB antes (so 100/200), which can be perfectly covered when keeping the 100 chips in play.

So whats your opinion about antes? Do they improve the gameplay? What is your opinion about SB/BB/10%BB antes?

Congrats on your first tournamenr succes!
I am currently trying to build a regular game too, and have spent a lot of time planning over the last weeks.

I think it‘s okay to cut levels shorter later on in the game, but I stick to 20 minute levels. In my experience the tournament end 1-2 levels earlier than estimated with the 5% rule or than my PokerTimer App that I use to set up my tourneys. I am aiming for 5 to maybe 6 hours at max for my next tournament, having now adjusted my blind structure to what I believe to be perfect. For now at least, we‘ll see how it actually plays out.

I do 20min breaks every 5 levels. I can also recommend this especially for newer players, getting tired early. That way we have 2 hour cycles with 5 levels and 1 break. I have a lot of smokers in my group but I just tell them to go smoke when they want to. Not going to do a smoke break every 30 minutes.

As for the Antes:
I personally am a big fan of regular Antes. A reason for this is that I love to play with a lot of chips. I know that the BB-Ante is much easier to keep track of. Also with regular antes you can‘t really color up chips, at least not until later. It is in fact quite annoying to remind the same couple dudes to put out their ante in every single hand for hours… we tried it a few years ago when I was hosting very rarely. I‘m starting to level up my game right now and host at least once a month. I will maybe try out regular antes again some time in the future, but I want to get everyone used to the game itself first. Eventually I‘m planning on doing a 30k Deep Stack Freezeout Bounty tourney in addition to my regular 10k re-buy structure. I‘d like to add some sort of league system to that some day.

I don‘t see a reason to add a BB ante in a STT. My game usually plays a bit faster, as I said, because we have a few heavy gamblers in our group. One especially, playing hands without looking regularly. But I think you‘ll be fine without them. Our games sound a lot alike structure whise.