Electrical upgrade for the poker apartment (1 Viewer)

tabletalker7

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Ok. My home is actually a duplex, a two bedroom lower with a studio upper. We just put one of the kids in the studio. We never rented it out, and never will. Once the kids grew up and moved on to their own lives I turned the studio apartment into my poker room. Now I have a problem up there. All the electrical outlets are 2 prong outlets, and the whole apartment is not grounded. Anyone with knowledge please chime in here. Is it actually worth the headache of rewiring the apartment or is it perfectly safe to change the outlets to GFCI? What are the pros and cons of each option?
 
The are the outlets all on one dedicated breaker? GFCI outlets can make the circuit safe from ground faults, but note with no physical ground they're not 100% safe for computers/electronics.
 
The are the outlets all on one dedicated breaker? GFCI outlets can make the circuit safe from ground faults, but note with no physical ground they're not 100% safe for computers/electronics.
Two breakers, and those electronics are not in use. The laptop charges downstairs and runs on it's battery upstairs, and then the tv, the fridge (it is only a 2 prong fridge, it is THAT OLD and just won't die so I keep using it), shuffle tech machine, hot dog roller, and nacho cheese dispenser.
 
A GFCI will work without a ground. A GFCI works by measuring the current leaving the hot and the current returning on the neutral and comparing them. The GFCI trips if the currents are unequal because that means some current must be “leaking” somewhere. A ground connection is not required for this to function properly.
 
Are the boxes in the wall plastic or metal? Unfortunately you only have 2 conductors in the cable which means no ground. A GFCI reads a loss of current between the hot and ground so there for it would not work properly. If the boxes are metal some people ground the box to the ground prong on a 3 prong plug. Is it right? Not really because there is no ground path.

If you want clean reliable power for electronics and equipment it is highly recommended to rewire with a real ground back to the panel if possible. Could also ground to. Copper water pipe as long as the entire run coming in from the source is metal and not CPVC.

Again not necessary but recommend replacement. This is my line of work, I am a 20 year electrical foreman in our nation's captiol area!
 
A lot depends on the age of the house, and construction materials. If the wiring is knob and tube (fairly common in much older homes that have not been renovated), that presents a not insignificant fire risk, and should probably be replaced entirely. You also have to consider asbestos (both in the wiring and in the walls and attic insulation). If it is present, it is sometimes better to leave things undisturbed. If it exists and you do proceed, you MUST have a professional do the removal and cleanup (not inexpensive).

In any event it is not a trivial task to open up all the walls to replace wiring, but frequently the safety issues and the lack of capacity makes it practical or even necessary.

You may want to have a licensed electrician perform an inspection and get an estimate. You'll have a better basis on which to make a decision.
 
You may want to have a licensed electrician perform an inspection and get an estimate. You'll have a better basis on which to make a decision.
Unfortunately, with this pandemic (and more importantly the fact that oil is still going under 40 a barrel) I am only working 2 weeks a month and the required funds for a licensed electrician do not exist currently. That is why GFCI came into the thought process. I can do that myself easy enough. Is it worth going with GFCI as a stopgap measure until things return to normal?
 
Another option that I am a bit reluctant to suggest is the use of a "cheater" plug that has a female three prong and a male 2 prong. They usually come with a metal tab attached to the female ground prong that you can (and should) connect to a suitable ground. The reason I am a bit reluctant to suggest them is that most people skip the ground connection part of the equation, and certain appliances and tools rely on that connection for safety purposes. The cheater plugs may be difficult to find in your local hardware store, as there is a liability issue when you misuse them and you die or your house burns to the ground.
 
Another option that I am a bit reluctant to suggest is the use of a "cheater" plug that has a female three prong and a male 2 prong. They usually come with a metal tab attached to the female ground prong that you can (and should) connect to a suitable ground. The reason I am a bit reluctant to suggest them is that most people skip the ground connection part of the equation, and certain appliances and tools rely on that connection for safety purposes. The cheater plugs may be difficult to find in your local hardware store, as there is a liability issue when you misuse them and you die or your house burns to the ground.
I am using those now and quite frankly am thinking it is time for something better. They suck.
 
Are the boxes in the wall plastic or metal? Unfortunately you only have 2 conductors in the cable which means no ground. A GFCI reads a loss of current between the hot and ground so there for it would not work properly. If the boxes are metal some people ground the box to the ground prong on a 3 prong plug. Is it right? Not really because there is no ground path.

If you want clean reliable power for electronics and equipment it is highly recommended to rewire with a real ground back to the panel if possible. Could also ground to. Copper water pipe as long as the entire run coming in from the source is metal and not CPVC.

Again not necessary but recommend replacement. This is my line of work, I am a 20 year electrical foreman in our nation's captiol area!

Ben - in the absense of re-wiring, which very much agreed would be the best scenario to establish the correct grounding, is there any safety benefit using a GFCI outlet in this scenario? I had read that using this apporach makes the line safe from a "human" perspective, but some types of electronics may be adversely affected.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/platform/amp/electrical/21015454/replacing-two-prong-receptacles

This seemed to jive with NEC, reference "Pro2Pro Tip" in the link above. Curious about your thoughts, thanks bud.
 
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I am using those now and quite frankly am thinking it is time for something better. They suck.
Yes they suck, but if used properly they are much cheaper than the alternatives. I can't comment intelligently about whether GFCI receptacles would work in a 2 wire application, but a GFCI breaker is fairly pricey (again, can't say definitively if it would or wouldn't work with 2 wires, but I'm pretty sure such breakers are not DESIGNED to do so). Rewiring would likely be in the thousands (or more, depending on the scope of work). So the cheater is a cheap, dirty option that can be effective and safe if used properly. If money is tight, they may be the best choice as an interim solution until you can afford to do a more permanent solution (kinda like using the old Dice chips while you are saving up for China Clays (GFCI) or Paulsons (rewiring).;)
 
I'm just not sure why a GFCI is even mentioned here... they sense leak of power to ground specifically in wet locations. Kitchens, bathrooms, outdoors. In an absence of grounding conductor there is no "path" to sense the leakage of power, therefore it would be pointless to install one.

That article you shared @Irish is basically saying the same thing as I said above. If the system uses older metal Bx wire and metal boxes, the jockey will carry the ground. Simply install a ground tail bonded to the box and install the new 3 prong device. Also if there is metal cable and metal boxes you could install a GFCI as the jacket would carry the ground and the field of resistance needed for the GFCI to operate. But this is not considered a clean ground path. I would say get used to random trappings of the GFCi when heavier loads are plugged in.
 
Half of our house is not grounded. The ungrounded half has GFCI outlets and sticker that says "no equipment ground". They are human safe, but electronics would need a true grounded outlet or there is some fire risk. I have known some people to epoxy the ground hole in GFCI outlets so that you can't plug in electronics that really should have a ground. I don't know if there is much benefit to the GFCI outlet outside of a bathroom or kitchen where water creates a greater risk of shock, unless you are planning on plugging in 3 prong electrical devices which really should be grounded.
 
What does your breaker box look like can you post a picture? That's the place where I would focus. Often these old 2 wire systems have Zinsco panels. They have green and red colored breaker handles. They are awful and many insurance companies will drop your coverage if they find out that you have one.
 
If the system uses older metal Bx wire and metal boxes, the jockey (Jacket?) will carry the ground. Simply install a ground tail bonded to the box and install the new 3 prong device. Also if there is metal cable and metal boxes you could install a GFCI as the jacket would carry the ground and the field of resistance needed for the GFCI to operate. But this is not considered a clean ground path. I would say get used to random trappings (trippings?) of the GFCi when heavier loads are plugged in.
OP would need to understand what the various wire types were, and whether there is indeed a ground path on the metal box (unlikely on a 2 wire configuration, unless BX or other metal jacketed cable is bonded to the box). My experience (albeit very limited) is most 2 wire installations use Loomex type non-metallic outer jacket, so there would be no ground path available. I agree, GFCI is not designed for the discussed application, more for safety in wet or damp locations in a 3 wire system. Whether it might provide any more benefit than replacing the 2 wire receptacles with ungrounded 3 wire receptacles (a really bad idea) seems to be the topic of debate, and I am not qualified to render an opinion.
 
What does your breaker box look like can you post a picture? That's the place where I would focus. Often these old 2 wire systems have Zinsco panels. They have green and red colored breaker handles. They are awful and many insurance companies will drop your coverage if they find out that you have one.

IMG_20200927_133443.jpg


10 and 11 go upstairs
 
OP would need to understand what the various wire types were, and whether there is indeed a ground path on the metal box (unlikely on a 2 wire configuration, unless BX or other metal jacketed cable is bonded to the box). My experience (albeit very limited) is most 2 wire installations use Loomex type non-metallic outer jacket, so there would be no ground path available. I agree, GFCI is not designed for the discussed application, more for safety in wet or damp locations in a 3 wire system. Whether it might provide any more benefit than replacing the 2 wire receptacles with ungrounded 3 wire receptacles (a really bad idea) seems to be the topic of debate, and I am not qualified to render an opinion.
With zero ground path (non metallic jacket) it is pointless to change anything. You can't make a grounding path... either use the 2 wire system as it has been for years or rewire
 
@Ben8257 I also asked this question in a group text with a majority of my players and they say it is normal for houses in my area built when mine was to have grounded boxes but not grounded plugs. Sounds like wiring running through metal sheathing and the sheathing acting as a ground. They talked me through testing the box and indeed it is grounded (AC voltage on the multimeter reads exactly the same testing in both sides of the plug as it does with the one end in the hot and the other touching the box). You are the professional, does this help me at all?
 
@Ben8257 I also asked this question in a group text with a majority of my players and they say it is normal for houses in my area built when mine was to have grounded boxes but not grounded plugs. Sounds like wiring running through metal sheathing and the sheathing acting as a ground. They talked me through testing the box and indeed it is grounded (AC voltage on the multimeter reads exactly the same testing in both sides of the plug as it does with the one end in the hot and the other touching the box). You are the professional, does this help me at all?
@Ben8257 - if this is the case, would it not make sense to just replace the 2 prong receptacles with 3 prong versions, and run a pigtail from the Ground connector to the box? Cheaper, and would avoid issues with a GFCI mis-tripping. Unlikely that the sheath is rated for the fault current though.
 
@Ben8257 I also asked this question in a group text with a majority of my players and they say it is normal for houses in my area built when mine was to have grounded boxes but not grounded plugs. Sounds like wiring running through metal sheathing and the sheathing acting as a ground. They talked me through testing the box and indeed it is grounded (AC voltage on the multimeter reads exactly the same testing in both sides of the plug as it does with the one end in the hot and the other touching the box). You are the professional, does this help me at all?
That is great! That means add a ground tail... if the box is metal it should have a tapped hole in the rear of the box. Ground tails are avalible at the Depot or any other home construction store. It's a piece of green wire about 8 inches long, tap the screw into the hole in the rear of the box, buy a 3 prong plug version and attach the green wire to the green screw on the plug! You now have a grounded system. Ideal? Not really but it will work fine buddy, basically if their is ever a short you are sending voltage through the jacket of your wire but will go.back to ground and trip the breaker.
 
That is great! That means add a ground tail... if the box is metal it should have a tapped hole in the rear of the box. Ground tails are avalible at the Depot or any other home construction store. It's a piece of green wire about 8 inches long, tap the screw into the hole in the rear of the box, buy a 3 prong plug version and attach the green wire to the green screw on the plug! You now have a grounded system. Ideal? Not really but it will work fine buddy, basically if their is ever a short you are sending voltage through the jacket of your wire but will go.back to ground and trip the breaker.
I may not be an electrician, but I have a TON of leftover 12 gauge wire from wiring up halos as daytime runners in my Jeep. Can't I just use that?
 
I may not be an electrician, but I have a TON of leftover 12 gauge wire from wiring up halos as daytime runners in my Jeep. Can't I just use that?

Wrap some green electrical tape first, just to avoid confusing the hot or neutral wires with the ground wire. It may not be you that opens the box in a decade or so.
 
Not rated the same, that wire is rated for DC voltage. You really need 12 AWG THHN or THWN rated at 600v AC. Not going to say it won't work but I wouldn't use it. Ground tails are like $1 each or you can buy THHN pretty cheap and a small tub of green ground screws.
 
Not rated the same, that wire is rated for DC voltage. You really need 12 AWG THHN or THWN rated at 600v AC. Not going to say it won't work but I wouldn't use it. Ground tails are like $1 each or you can buy THHN pretty cheap and a small tub of green ground screws.
Will do. Now does this mean GCFI is a waste?
 
Not rated the same, that wire is rated for DC voltage. You really need 12 AWG THHN or THWN rated at 600v AC. Not going to say it won't work but I wouldn't use it. Ground tails are like $1 each or you can buy THHN pretty cheap and a small tub of green ground screws.
Good point, the wire he has is probably stranded, not suitable for house wiring.
 
Around here, we use ground clips. Just a few inches of 14ga wire attached to the new outlet and the clip, shove the clip onto the edge of the metal box, and done. No need to screw into the back of the box. I know Lowe’s has them, not sure about HD.
FBC95680-5B1F-48B1-A03D-59D23FBA8A67.jpeg
 
Nobody has said it yet, so let me be the first. Make sure that you open the circuit breaker and test for no voltage before opening up the boxes and replacing the receptacles. 120V AC can kill you under the right (wrong) circumstances.
 

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