Do you have a proper BRM for Home games? (2 Viewers)

[bergs]

Where does tipping $5 for drinks and putting back 15-20 of them in a 6 hour session fall in BRM? Courage knows what I'm talkin about (insert sage nod here).

 

[courage]

Where does tipping $5 for drinks and putting back 15-20 of them in a 6 hour session fall in BRM? Courage knows what I'm talkin about (insert sage nod here).

The profundity of this question has vexed many a winning player for decades. Sklansky and Miller co-authored an article on the topic in 2008 but violently disagreed (insofar as poker authors throw down) as to hourly amount and impact. What remains certain is that the benefits fall directly in the lap of the cocktail waitress and you are stimulating the economy. Her BRM thanks you. Repeatedly.

 

[stocky]

I have no BRM, at home games I play for fun. I'll take what I can afford to lose at that's it. What I win goes into the family budget for anything (food, bills whatever basically a bonus, it's not needed but we use it for what we can). The game I attend is always a tournament and the dealer plays for free but needs to make sure the game is going right. I'm always willing to deal so poker usually cost me nothing (which is very handy these days ).

When I was working and we were on top of everything I'd take $200 with. But this covered tourney buy in. Rebuys if needed. And cash game if one got going after. And paid for my drinks for the night. I never went home with nothing, it was more for just in case.

 

[abby99]

I'm a small-stakes recreational player and don't have or need a dedicated bankroll. Without a dedicated bankroll, BRM (bankroll management) doesn't apply. I manage my life roll responsibly and only play in games that I can afford, which means that I have no risk of ruin as far as poker is concerned. Risk of ruin is what BRM is designed to limit.

My dad taught us never to gamble with money that we can't afford to lose. Good advice, IMO.

 

[slisk250]

I'm a recreational player. I am ahead a bit this year so I don't manage a bankroll like many of you might. What do I bring to the table? I'm happy to play $20 all the way to $500 buy in for cash. I adjust my play to the group. Nothing worse than a player coming down in stakes and tries to run everyone over because losing 100 bucks means nothing to them.

 

[Poker Zombie]

BRM meant a little more to me in the days of legal US online poker. I could deposit some money, and utilize BRM so I wouldn't need to deposit more funds. Today, I think "bankroll" is for poker pros who need it for survival, or braggarts that want to boast of their skillz. For everyone else, it's (as abby said) life roll management.

 

[bergs]

The profundity of this question has vexed many a winning player for decades. Sklansky and Miller co-authored an article on the topic in 2008 but violently disagreed (insofar as poker authors throw down) as to hourly amount and impact. What remains certain is that the benefits fall directly in the lap of the cocktail waitress and you are stimulating the economy. Her BRM thanks you. Repeatedly.

Thanks for this Courage. I found your response particularly interesting for a number of reasons:

1) In hundreds of hours of play, I've never, not even once, put a tip directly in a cocktail waitress' lap. Are you basically taking the position that doing so would be in some way +EV?
2) You made an assumption that I was a winning player - and perhaps I am, but with the cocktail rake, I might be closer to a breakeven player.
3) What about situations where you're playing with a friend from Louisville and he drunkenly insists on re-raising your tip, causing me to 4-tip in order to retain my manly image?

 

[manamongkids]

Thanks for this Courage. I found your response particularly interesting for a number of reasons:

1) In hundreds of hours of play, I've never, not even once, put a tip directly in a cocktail waitress' lap. Are you basically taking the position that doing so would be in some way +EV?
2) You made an assumption that I was a winning player - and perhaps I am, but with the cocktail rake, I might be closer to a breakeven player.
3) What about situations where you're playing with a friend from Louisville and he drunkenly insists on re-raising your tip, causing me to 4-tip in order to retain my manly image?

Whats your 4 tip range? Is it a water? a soda? a beer? a cocktail? something on the rocks?

 

[NiceShot]

I'm a recreational player. I am ahead a bit this year so I don't manage a bankroll like many of you might. What do I bring to the table? I'm happy to play $20 all the way to $500 buy in for cash. I adjust my play to the group. Nothing worse than a player coming down in stakes and tries to run everyone over because losing 100 bucks means nothing to them.

I have actually learned how to play against players like this. Fish for dinner!

 

[courage]

Thanks for this Courage. I found your response particularly interesting for a number of reasons:

1) In hundreds of hours of play, I've never, not even once, put a tip directly in a cocktail waitress' lap. Are you basically taking the position that doing so would be in some way +EV?
2) You made an assumption that I was a winning player - and perhaps I am, but with the cocktail rake, I might be closer to a breakeven player.
3) What about situations where you're playing with a friend from Louisville and he drunkenly insists on re-raising your tip, causing me to 4-tip in order to retain my manly image?

#1. For you, yes. This plan cannot fail. It's difficult to execute however, they're rarely sitting down.
#2. Even your breakeveness has variance. Think of the disciplined Chicken pounding liters of quad-filtered H2O and grinding 3/6 LHE.
#3. In this instance you don't want to 4-tip light or thoughtlessly. Standard play is 2.5x 4-tip but double down on the drink order for value. If reraised, do keg stand and ask nitty lady in seat 3 to hold your feet.

 

[bergs]

Whats your 4 tip range? Is it a water? a soda? a beer? a cocktail? something on the rocks?

4 tip range is waitress-dependent. If she brings drinks quickly and she has top shelf stuff like Crown and Ginger, then I'll occasionally 4 tip to widen my range for things like water to hydrate with later on in the session. If the waiter is a dude, I almost never 4 tip. If it's the Parx and the waitress is significantly attractive, I may just lead out with a 4-tip sized tip in order to induce action. Standard play, basically.

 

[bergs]

#1. For you, yes. This plan cannot fail. It's difficult to execute however, they're rarely sitting down.
#2. Even your breakeveness has variance. Think of the disciplined Chicken pounding liters of quad-filtered H2O and grinding 3/6 LHE.
#3. In this instance you don't want to 4-tip light or thoughtlessly. Standard play is 2.5x 4-tip but double down on the drink order for value. If reraised, do keg stand and ask nitty lady in seat 3 to hold your feet.

I can't H2O it up like Chicken. I have tri-filtered water but I haven't made an additional investment in hydroprocessing yet. Plus, a wide amount of variance within my breakeven camouflages my play and image.

I like your line with the 2.5-4x tip but the keg stand is a problem. I mean, I'm still in my prime, but asking a woman to hold my feet - I weigh almost 270 lbs bro - that's gotta be a pretty burly woman.

So I was playing a 2/5 session at Mohegan recently and I ran into this - can you give me a line check?

- On my 2nd Crown and Ginger, win a big pot
- Waitress comes over and I ask for another Crown and Ginger - it's been 10 minutes since my last one but we get good service because it's the biggest game in the room up on the stage
- Waitress says there is a strict 2 drink per hour policy
- I go outside to get a beer from the bar there and return with it
- Floor says "We'd rather you didn't do that"

WWYD?

 

[manamongkids]

I can't H2O it up like Chicken. I have tri-filtered water but I haven't made an additional investment in hydroprocessing yet. Plus, a wide amount of variance within my breakeven camouflages my play and image.

I like your line with the 2.5-4x tip but the keg stand is a problem. I mean, I'm still in my prime, but asking a woman to hold my feet - I weigh almost 270 lbs bro - that's gotta be a pretty burly woman.

So I was playing a 2/5 session at Mohegan recently and I ran into this - can you give me a line check?

- On my 2nd Crown and Ginger, win a big pot
- Waitress comes over and I ask for another Crown and Ginger - it's been 10 minutes since my last one but we get good service because it's the biggest game in the room up on the stage
- Waitress says there is a strict 2 drink per hour policy
- I go outside to get a beer from the bar there and return with it
- Floor says "We'd rather you didn't do that"

WWYD?

order a round for the table

 

[NiceShot]

I have a general gambling fund just to see how it grows and shrinks which funds games like poker, craps, and blackjack. I wouldn't call it a bank roll as I don't get to play much with work and the kids.

Casino's are maybe a couple times a year and an occasional card room with friends. As a result most of live poker is in home games.

Fortunately my gfund has been growing rather than shrinking, but overall I prescribe to the same as others on this thread where I risk only what I am willing to lose as it is entertainment for me and not my career. I tend to quit on non-poker games while I am ahead as probability tends to eventually get me if I keep at it too long, I tend to leave with extra. This is probably because I have found a direct corellation in my drink to lose ratio. Over time both go up. Comps and drinks are a bonus even if I only go a couple times a year.

I generally go up to 200 max for buy in cash or tourney.

I do have a 2 month sabbatical that I am eligible for, I wonder how my wife would feel if I decided to become a grinder . Vegas will be somewhere in there.

 

[courage]

I can't H2O it up like Chicken. I have tri-filtered water but I haven't made an additional investment in hydroprocessing yet. Plus, a wide amount of variance within my breakeven camouflages my play and image.

I like your line with the 2.5-4x tip but the keg stand is a problem. I mean, I'm still in my prime, but asking a woman to hold my feet - I weigh almost 270 lbs bro - that's gotta be a pretty burly woman.

So I was playing a 2/5 session at Mohegan recently and I ran into this - can you give me a line check?

- On my 2nd Crown and Ginger, win a big pot
- Waitress comes over and I ask for another Crown and Ginger - it's been 10 minutes since my last one but we get good service because it's the biggest game in the room up on the stage
- Waitress says there is a strict 2 drink per hour policy
- I go outside to get a beer from the bar there and return with it
- Floor says "We'd rather you didn't do that"

WWYD?

I like the move to multi-table the beer. Also could have donk tipped 4x and declared "I'm the exception to policy." If waitress takes tip but declines drink then you're freerolling. Open disdain and sniping comments about policy, her shoes, her hair, makeup, ass, etc for remainder of shift.

 

[bergs]

order a round for the table

Courage - can you recap what happened when I ordered a round of shots for the table? FWIW, this is the last time I did this.

 

[courage]

Courage - can you recap what happened when I ordered a round of shots for the table? FWIW, this is the last time I did this.

Prolly not, it's all a blur. Precipitated tilt-walk with no noodles and yelling at custodian.

 

[Poker Zombie]

- On my 2nd Crown and Ginger, win a big pot
- Waitress comes over and I ask for another Crown and Ginger - it's been 10 minutes since my last one but we get good service because it's the biggest game in the room up on the stage
- Waitress says there is a strict 2 drink per hour policy
- I go outside to get a beer from the bar there and return with it
- Floor says "We'd rather you didn't do that"

WWYD?

Reply: I'd rather not do it either, but the policy only allows her to being me 2 drinks per hour.

-or-

Reply: I'd rather not do this either, but I didn't want to miss another hand waiting for the bartender to mix a Crown and Ginger.

-or-

(if applicable) Reply: This is a domestic beer. Since I've been drinking Crown Royal, this really doesn't count as a drink.


With 3 snappy replies, I've got to believe the floor will continue to get away with it - as you have proven you are a humorous drunk.

 

[pltrgyst]

....It's more fun as a hobby. As an income, it is either boring or terrifying, depending how variance is treating you.

Gospel. Young wanna-be players should have this tattooed on the inside of their eyelids.

 

[bergs]

Prolly not, it's all a blur. Precipitated tilt-walk with no noodles and yelling at custodian.

I think a bought a round of tequila for the table and blasted off $3200 in the next 2 hands on horrible semi-bluffs. I had to eject the run bad via vomit in Dunkin parking lot next morning.

 

[DrStrange]

Well lets see where to begin. . . .

BRM is a sophistry for most players. (keeping your losses to a manageable level isn't bankroll management but is essential for a losing player.) There are two types of players who need solid BRM, someone who plays poker (and wins) as their main income source and someone who is playing and winning in games where the stakes are high relative to their income. If one of those is you, then you need to pay serious attention to risk of ruin. If you play $0.25/$0.50 or even 1/2 but work full time - bankroll management is not an issue to be concerned with. Keep in mind if you are a breakeven or losing player your bankroll is not the issue. You are keeping your losses to a manageable level - you are paying for entertainment it just happens to be poker.

Special events are a special case unless you are "Mitt Romney wealthy". Yes you do worry about bankroll management if you go to Vegas and play the WSOP events plus side games. You might worry about it playing in a meet-up with games well outside your comfort zone though both of these might be loss management rather than bankroll management because you likely aren't risking ruin, just an early end to your trip.

So many misunderstandings exist about knowing your win rate. Most of the "rules of thumb' are true if you are playing limit poker where the win rates are zero to two big bets per 100 hands. If you play limit poker, it takes a LONG time to know how you are doing, if you ever will know, because the variation is much larger than the win rate (say the variation is +/- 13BB per 100 hands and win/loss rates are +2 to -2 big bets per 100 hands). None of the rules of thumb are accurate for no limit / pot limit games.

I've played big bet poker for 35 years. I have never had a two month long losing streak. This isn't surprising, it is expected. My run-bad looks like a patch of break even poker. And that is true for every solid winning TAG player. LAGs are going to have more variance, but a +15 big blind per hour winner just isn't going to lose over any moderate period of time. Bankroll management? Well maybe a modest amount, but I have the same $1,000 I had in 1980 and spend the rest.

It is true that you never "know" your win/loss rate but you can make a solid guess about your skill level reasonably quickly playing big bet poker. I can't be sure my win rate is 15bb/hr but I can be 99%+ confident that I am a winning player. You can classify players as "winner", "loser" or "roughly breakeven" quickly and accurately. The breakeven guys might want to track their winnings/losses just to see how they are doing but for the most part it doesn't matter - you win a little or lose a little but had a good time getting there (and your bankroll doesn't need managing because the amounts involved are insignificant relative to your annual wages).

It is also true that getting a good measure of variance (or standard deviation) is hard. But the size of the standard deviation grows with the square root of the sample size and the winning grow proportionally with the sample size. So I can look at a 50 session sample, see I won $10,000 with a best guess standard deviation of $3,250. Maybe I am off a bit on the variation but still I am roughly three SD above breakeven. You do not need to be precise to have a good idea between winner, loser, breakeven. (and if I played the same way over 100 sessions and made $20,000, the SD would be roughly $4,500 or 4+ SD above breakeven.)

Bottom line. The big winners are essentially sure who they are. Bankroll management doesn't matter except in special cases. The big losers should know if they keep track of results (or if they would look at their cash draws). They don't need bankroll management, they need to keep their losses manageable. The breakeven guys may never know unless they keep careful records but it isn't going to matter much one way or the other.

Play to have fun. If it is fun to play while watching a bankroll - do it. Otherwise keep your losses to an affordable level and enjoy!

DrStrange

 

[10centguitar]

I have had a dedicated BR since the end of 2011. I started with $1000 that I saved $20 at a time for a little over a year.

I mostly play 1/2, 1/3, or 1/3/5 NLH. (only because its mostly what we have around here)

However, I am not a nazi about BRM. I play when I think the game is good. I have confidence in myself to win and also not to get tilt out if Im losing.

If I am playing beyond my BR, I will take a shot with a single buy-in. If I lose oh well.
One thing I will not do is buy back in, or play a lower limit to get even. (at a casino)
If I lose, then I will take a break and play the next day.



If you are on a budget or just starting out try bringing only a single buy-in.

Start with 5-10 buyins for your roll, play tight, waiting for suckers. If you lose your buy-in, leave right away. If you double/triple up, consider leaving. Repeat this until you have 20-30 buyins.
It will take you awhile, and it will be boring as hell, but you will make money if you are any sort of decent at cards.

Then loosen up some. Maybe play 2 buy-ins and play a little looser, or when you double/triple up, stay until the bitter end for a big score.




The two biggest parts of my success have been good game selection, and my girlfriend's support and encouragement. (something I have worked hard to obtain and maintain!)

There are always some really juicy games that have high rakes, or look like they will be busted and I stay
clear of those.

When I can find a good game with a lot of action that is steady, I am on the ups. From time to time games will dry-up and I have to search. And life can tap into my roll.

I make my profits when the going is good. I don't go fishing when the weather is terrible. (At least not any serious fishing) I find a game that I can crush consistently.
Sometimes I search around for a good long while, or move from one game to the other to follow the whales and avoid other grinders.


The support I get from my old lady has been tremendous. She doesn't keep tabs on my roll and really only lets me play because Im a consistently winning player and I have a lot of discipline. At first the money tripped her out. "You lost $300?!" or "you made more last night than you did teaching all month!" She has gotten used to around $400 on either side as normal variance.

She allows me to take trips to the wsop circuit or to vegas when I am not teaching. (I teach at a local college during the days of the week)
I will spend 3-7 days in vegas or new orleans or wherever and have set work hours, playing from 8pm-330am or so, mindful to take breaks every 2 hours. I might have 3-4 beers the entire trip, and eating very cheaply.


She a wonderful woman in that she cares about my progress. She doesn't get mad or laugh if im down and she doesn't over-congratulate my wins.
Her method has been to check in from time to time in order stay informed and to support me in my endeavors.

She only asks that I have set hours and don't talk her ear off about hands. (you folks can tell i like to talk)
But I make sure to be home when I say Im going to be home (usually 1am) and make sure to dedicate enough time to us to make our relationship work. I also let her know where I am when I go play.



It is not uncommon for me to go without playing regularly for 2-3 months, getting by with trips to a casino (5hrs closest for me).

When I find the right game, I typically play between 1 and 3 sessions a week, depending on whether or not Im dealing a game. A really good game I will play 3 sessions/week. Sometimes the dealing is better than the games and from time to time I will deal 2 nights a week and not play at all.

 

[pltrgyst]

- On my 2nd Crown and Ginger, win a big pot
- Waitress comes over and I ask for another Crown and Ginger - it's been 10 minutes since my last one but we get good service because it's the biggest game in the room up on the stage
- Waitress says there is a strict 2 drink per hour policy
- I go outside to get a beer from the bar there and return with it
- Floor says "We'd rather you didn't do that"

WWYD?

Somehow I missed this when it came around....

Sage advice from the Boy Scout retirement home here in FL: "be prepared" for such an emergency situation. This method has never failed me.

Before heading to any poker room or game, buy a large bottle (or two) of apple juice. Pour apple juice down sink or toilet, and replace with amber beverage of choice (Scotch suggested). Take with to poker room in your pack, sack, or whatever.

No floor will ever object to your consumption of such a healthy fruit beverage.

 

[ssanel54]

she has top shelf stuff like Crown and Ginger

Where is Crown considered top shelf? Kentucky? Must be the velvet sack