Tourney Club Championship Refunds... (1 Viewer)

longflop

longflop

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I want to see if anybody has run into this before.

I wanted to go next level with my monthly tournament, so I designated the Saturday night of superbowl weekend to be the club championship. Every month players can pay $5, prior to the start of the monthly tournament, in order to have any point accrued that night to count towards the club championship. The points determine who qualifies to play for the championship and are also used to determine the starting stack for each players. The average stack will be 20,000 and the starting stacks will be based on each players percentage of the total points of qualified players.

Everybody is in to it. This is a shortened season, we have only been contributing for two months and only 2 players did not pay the additional $5. The $5 goes to the pot for the club championship, so as long as you qualify, there is no buy in for that tournament.

A question came up to me last tournament and as this is my first time through, I didn't have an answer. What would happen if a qualified player could not make the tournament? I get it, life happens and unexpected things come up, and I would not enjoy to have a player pay $55 over the year and then not be able to compete. The buy in for our monthly tourney is $20 with a $20 rebuy, so comparatively its a higher outlay. The other side of the coin, is that offering refunds if you can't play opens a pandora's box of everybody who doesn't have an above average starting stack all the sudden having plans that night.

I'm leaning towards saying tough luck, you're money is in the pot, but I haven't decided finally yet. I've given plenty of notice, the championship will be on the same date every year. One player came up with the idea of being able to transfer your stack to a non qualified player, with the negotiation between them. I would me more ok with this option, but still not sure I love it. Before I make a final call, I wanted to find out if you guys have run into this and how you handled it. As always, any and all input is appreciated!
 
The top 8 point finishers in our league qualify for the championship event. No exceptions. If you can't make it, sorry. And if somebody cannot make it, the game plays with 7.

A long time ago, different variations we tried included a) having the next player in points play instead of the absent player, b) allowing the absent player to name a substitute player, and c) refunding the absent player's money.

Consensus among all league participants is that the current method of dealing with it is superior to all others. The World Series of Poker final table waits for no man, and neither do we.
 
If they can’t commit, then move on without them. It’s about priority, and if your stuff is less important to them for whatever reason that’s a choice they should make up front.
 
I would agree. Especially if you set the date at the outset and it was understood, then your players take the risk of whether or not they can attend by agreeing in the first place.

I wouldn't open the door a crack for "I just can't make it."
 
If the date was established at the start, then, “Im sorry you can’t make it.” No subs. And if starting stacks at the championship are based on the player’s league finish, no one moves up in the standings.

Giving someone a refund is totally unfair to the other players.
 
What is your ruling if you cannot make it? Illness, free Super Bowl tickets, etc? Do you reschedule? Do you give them the keys to your house?

I'm not a fan of "pay to not play".

However, I'm sure @TexRex has considered this scenario and may have some insightful input o_O
 
Poker Zombie said:
What is your ruling if you cannot make it? Illness, free Super Bowl tickets, etc? Do you reschedule? Do you give them the keys to your house?

I'm not a fan of "pay to not play".

However, I'm sure @TexRex has considered this scenario and may have some insightful input o_O
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Rescheduling isn't going to happen. I want to keep things fun for these guys and keep them coming back. My league scoring is heavily attendance weighted, so if you qualify, it most likely means you were one of the regulars. I'm not a fan of paying into it, then something legitimate happens and you are out what you have paid into it. I'm just not sure there isn't an alternative that wouldn't get exploited.
 
Poker Zombie said:
What is your ruling if you cannot make it? Illness, free Super Bowl tickets, etc? Do you reschedule? Do you give them the keys to your house?
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If any qualifying or potentially qualifying player lets me know in advance of a conflict, we try to accommodate by rescheduling -- but they all know it's not a guaranteed thing (requires 100% agreement), and subsequently, the date may not change.

I am the TD, but league events are rarely held at our house anymore -- hosting duties rotate around town at various member homes. I provide structure, laptop, and chips/cards, while generally the hosts provide everything else (space, food, drinks, tables, chairs, and occasionally chips). Most venues are capable of running an event without me there.
 
I misunderstood that. I guess if something came up and I couldn't do it, it would have to be reacheduled, mainly because I'm not sure anybody else would do it. I had to skip a month this summer due to vacations, and despite plenty of notice and me volunteering to lend chips and tables, nobody stepped up to do it.
 
Indeed I have considered this scenario. I'm not sure how much insight I have for it though.

I had a couple of years where we charged everyone a rollover fee for our Main Event (ME). Those who came to the ME got credit for what they had paid in. Those that didn't make it just lost the rollover money. Our ME was open to all of our players. Since we had more players than openings, I even had a plan for dealing with having more sign up than we had places. I was going to hold a preliminary game the night before and play down to the number needed the next night. I'd even thought of doing a preliminary game the day of. However, neither turned out to be necessary since we didn't have more sign up than we had seats.

I think BG has the right idea. The date is the date and if you can't make it, too bad. If the host has to reschedule, then that is just an advantage of being a host -- they can't have the game without you.

That said, I used to play in one where they had a rollover amount. They didn't give refunds if you couldn't make it since the rollover money was needed to at least partially fund the event. I'm not a fan of that system. I did it for a couple of years, but I didn't like the way it worked.

Like Zombie, I'm not a fan of pay but not play. I won't play in a league where everyone pays for the final event, but only a few can make it. In talking to players, I found a lot of them felt the same way I did. However, not everyone agrees.

There is no system that will be perfectly fair in the sense that it considers refunds only for a just reason. Someone has to judge those reasons, and not everyone is going to see the reasons for not coming the same way. The reality is you have to determine what works best for you.

I can give one analogous situation. For our ME one year, we had everyone contribute $10 for pizza, and I gave them 3 choices of pizza. Someone begged for a 4th kind, and I relented. It was a disaster in a sense. We wound up with parts of 4 pizzas -- 7/8 or 3/4 of each, left over. If I'd stuck with 3, we would have had less left over. I asked for additional donations to cover the extra cost, but I covered most of it. Some people were unhappy they didn't get a refund. Most didn't contribute extra. I said "Never again!" What I do now is get a couple to provide the food. They get a budget. If they come in under budget, they keep the leftover amount. The couples I've had do it tell me they didn't go over budget, but they provided plenty of food.

I think the real problem is created when you have a "pay but can't play" system. That just creates inequities. I found that seemed to annoy players more than any other issue raised. The better players will generally like it, but here's a piece of advice. It's the net donators who hate it, and if you lose them, your game will change so drastically you won't recognize it.

We allow all who want to come to the ME to come. It's the same deal for everyone -- 2x the normal buy-in, same chip stack for all. If we have leftover money, it's added to the prize pool. Since we don't have "rollover" money, our leftover is what is contributed for expenses but not expensed.

So I've thought about it a lot, but I don't know how helpful this is.
 
longflop said:
I misunderstood that. I guess if something came up and I couldn't do it, it would have to be reacheduled, mainly because I'm not sure anybody else would do it. I had to skip a month this summer due to vacations, and despite plenty of notice and me volunteering to lend chips and tables, nobody stepped up to do it.
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I say tell them to sack up. If they know the date hey should be there
 
I’ll pile on. If you can’t make it, thanks for the donation.

To be honest, I’m not a fan of the optional $5 payment. It should be mandatory for everybody in the league.
 
Gobbs said:
I’ll pile on. If you can’t make it, thanks for the donation.

To be honest, I’m not a fan of the optional $5 payment. It should be mandatory for everybody in the league.
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DoubleEagle said:
Correct. Everyone pays for every session. Never optional.
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^ These I can support. You can call it a rake, a bonus pool, a promotion, or whatever. It may run into the grey area (or directly afoul) of your state code, so not every host would be comfortable with that. As a player however, I don't mind paying a smallish rake that I know I have a reasonable chance to earn back.
 
Skinnypots said:
I say tell them to sack up. If they know the date hey should be there
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^^This is coming from a league member.

My thinking with the optional, is that if you are choosing to pay the fee, you are choosing to accept the risk of potentially not making it.

I have a couple of one off players through the year, friends of people from out of town that won't be back. In that case, they would be required to pay into a pot they don't have a shot of winning.
 
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To Zombie's point ~ Caveat: I practice law in Texas but not anywhere else. I'm not offering actual legal advice here, and won't on this cite.

I’ll work from this example, but obviously there are variations. Suppose a monthly game for 11 months with a final game the last month. The big issue can be summed up as this: Who has a chance to actually win the prize money?

If all pay, but not everyone has a chance of making the final event, that looks more like an illegal rake. Example: 30 players paid into the final event fund, but only 10 are allowed to come. It sounds like everyone has a chance because you earn your way in, but the reality is 20 players do not actually have a chance. It’s just that no one knows who they are.

If all pay, but they must attend a certain number of games to enter, that looks more like an illegal rake, but it may depend on what happens to the contributions made by those who don’t make enough events. Example: Must attend 8 of the 11 games, but it’s open to all who attend at least 8.

First, what happens to the guy who attends the first 7 events, but can’t come to the next 4 (I’ll use because he was called up for military duty)? Does the host refund that player? This gets tricky because everyone has their own idea about what is a legitimate reason(s) for not making those events. I suspect most not everyone would agree with the judgment calls most hosts, wanting to have the best final event they can, are going to make. That’s a potential problem.

Second, what happens to the guy who doesn’t start until the 5th game, and somehow no one notices he has no chance to come to 8, either including him or he just didn’t know the rule. Does he get a refund? This is a problem.

Third, what happens to the guy who must stop part of the way through? For example, he moves. Does he get a refund?

All pay, but there aren’t enough seats at the final event to accommodate everyone. Example: 45 people pay, but there are literally only 30 seats. How you deal with the 15 who don’t have seats is a potential issue. First come, first served may sound nice, but it can be tricky to determine if everyone had an equal chance to sign up first. It sounds easy, but the reality is not everyone has a chance to win the prize money. You could get around this by offering a preliminary game (like the WSOP Main Event has multiple Day 1s). I think that works, but it still has the issue of someone who can’t make the final game has no chance to win the prize money since I think we all agree you must be present to win! Do those who “can’t” come get a refund.

If in any of the situations above, you answered “no refund,” you should know that not everyone agrees with you. Those potential disagreements could be resolved by legal means, and is that what you want? I wouldn’t.

Longflop just pointed out my conclusion that a player who agrees up front probably doesn’t make any waves and accepts the risk. I think Zombie is making that same point and I suspect MOST players would agree. Most is not all of them though.

Probably most don’t set enough aside to have a true civil legal issue. If it’s $10 a month, the unhappy party goes to a lawyer, pays a $250 consultation fee, and is told what? For less than $110 bucks, he has or doesn’t have a case? No good outcome for him there, unless he’s got a legal services contract where that kind of thing is covered. The the law firm sends the host a nastygram demanding a refund. Now the host has the issue of for less than $110 bucks, he has or doesn’t have a case? Does he spend the money on a consultation? No good outcome for him there. (If that sounds familiar…)

The real worry is criminal issues. A ticked off party goes to the cops or prosecutor and your game gets shut down. If it’s enough money held back in total, it could be really serious. Ignorance of the law won’t be an excuse.

My advice to any host is this is an area where staying in the white or very light gray is best. By light gray, I mean if someone asks for a refund, give it to them even if it detracts from your event.

I’ve seen many descriptions of games that I know would not be legal in Texas. I’d just make sure you really understood the law in your state and NOT get starry-eyed over your final event to justify it.
 
My take:

If you choose to participate, you agree to the rules and conditions set in place. That includes ALL rules, including those that govern play, seating, payment distribution, qualifications, and scheduling. You don't get to pick and choose which rules apply to you and which don't.

If you don't agree with the rules, don't play. But attempting to later modify the rules/conditions to meet your personal reqiurements is a guarantee you won't be invited to future events (and blacklisted locally).

And fuck a bunch of legalese. In my state, no game is legal, no matter how it's run.
 
TexRex said:
First, what happens to the guy who attends the first 7 events, but can’t come to the next 4 (I’ll use because he was called up for military duty)? Does the host refund that player? This gets tricky because everyone has their own idea about what is a legitimate reason(s) for not making those events. I suspect most not everyone would agree with the judgment calls most hosts, wanting to have the best final event they can, are going to make. That’s a potential problem.
Click to expand...

No refunds, no exceptions, no problems.

TexRex said:
Second, what happens to the guy who doesn’t start until the 5th game, and somehow no one notices he has no chance to come to 8, either including him or he just didn’t know the rule. Does he get a refund? This is a problem.
Click to expand...

Tell him what he is paying for up front. If he doesn't want to play, that is fine. Problem solved.

TexRex said:
Third, what happens to the guy who must stop part of the way through? For example, he moves. Does he get a refund?
Click to expand...

No refunds, no exceptions, no problems.

TexRex said:
All pay, but there aren’t enough seats at the final event to accommodate everyone. Example: 45 people pay, but there are literally only 30 seats. How you deal with the 15 who don’t have seats is a potential issue. First come, first served may sound nice, but it can be tricky to determine if everyone had an equal chance to sign up first. It sounds easy, but the reality is not everyone has a chance to win the prize money. You could get around this by offering a preliminary game (like the WSOP Main Event has multiple Day 1s). I think that works, but it still has the issue of someone who can’t make the final game has no chance to win the prize money since I think we all agree you must be present to win! Do those who “can’t” come get a refund.
Click to expand...

The championship is limited to the top qualifiers, otherwise, you're just running a pre-paid event where everybody doesn't pay the same amount. So, there should never be a problem with the number of seats. Publish the championship tournament date at the beginning of the season and if you can't make it, thanks for the donations. No refunds, no exceptions, no substitutes, no problems.

TexRex said:
If in any of the situations above, you answered “no refund,” you should know that not everyone agrees with you. Those potential disagreements could be resolved by legal means, and is that what you want? I wouldn’t.

Longflop just pointed out my conclusion that a player who agrees up front probably doesn’t make any waves and accepts the risk. I think Zombie is making that same point and I suspect MOST players would agree. Most is not all of them though.
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If somebody wants to cut off his/her own nose to spite his/her own face over a few bucks, the person is probably too dumb to be playing poker in the first place. For heaven's sake, I can't even imagine somebody asking for a refund, let alone going to a lawyer over so few dollars???? Maybe the problem in this case would be to screen the invite list a lot better.
 
TexRex said:
...........For our ME one year, we had everyone contribute $10 for pizza, and I gave them 3 choices of pizza. Someone begged for a 4th kind, and I relented. It was a disaster in a sense. We wound up with parts of 4 pizzas -- 7/8 or 3/4 of each, left over. If I'd stuck with 3, we would have had less left over. .......
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Dude, do you make them bring their own toilet paper too? Does each person get allotted a certain number of corn chips and 1/2 cup of salsa?

Sorry, but really, WTF? A Disaster? I see it as leftover pizza for me.
 
TexRex said:
If in any of the situations above, you answered “no refund,” you should know that not everyone agrees with you. Those potential disagreements could be resolved by legal means, and is that what you want? I wouldn’t.
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Not a problem here in KS since ALL homes games are illegal, rake or no rake. Everyone knows it and no one cares.
 
Gobbs, you missed the point on the guy who starts the 5th game. No one told him and it wasn't discovered. Therefore, he got no notice.

I agree the no refund, no exceptions is a fairly clean rule to follow. It works well if there is notice up front and players agree. I'm pointing out legalities more than practicalities. I definitely agree that if someone is going to make an issue, they shouldn't be involved and am wide open to figuring out how to find the trouble makers on the front end. But I really don't care about that guy as much as I care about the host staying out of legal issues. That's where no refunds, no exceptions becomes a problem for the player who decides to create a problem. Try ticking off the local police chief's nephew where the game isn't legal, and suddenly the rules are not so clear.

Home poker in Texas is legal, but there are rules. What seems to tick authorities off here varies with how close you are to out of state casinos. For planning purposes, consistency is a great thing. But the reality is in the Dallas area, about an hour south of OK casinos, someone (I suspect those casinos) see some home games as a threat and they will notify authorities, and someone (I suspect those casinos) has enough money or clout to do something about it.

We even have situations where what is legal in one county is not legal in the county right next to it (primarly comes up for bar leagues). I'm pretty close to two counties, and really not far from a third. Some games occur in more than one county when the locations vary.

Saying you are going to ignore legal issues is your choice, but here, we can try to stay within the rules.

On the pizza, I had little to do with the order other than authorizing a 4th type. People were told we expected to get refunds, but in fact the cost ran more than expected. The fiasco of it was more of the disaster than the money, which amounted to $20 or so more than expected. Some helped, some didn't, and some complained -- typical givers, users/takers responses. Lesson learned -- don't do it that way again. It was our first time ordering food for the group.

What kind of salsa are you talking about throwing out on the lawn? It better be from New York or New Jersey -- otherwise it could be a hanging offense! ;)
 
TexRex said:
.....On the pizza, I had little to do with the order other than authorizing a 4th type. People were told we expected to get refunds, but in fact the cost ran more than expected. The fiasco of it was more of the disaster than .....
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I’m really sorry, but I can’t get over this horribly catastrophic pizza event. So what is the rule if I bring in some unauthorized food? Are you checking bags at the door? I want to be secure in any venue I might play in.
 
Regarding the legality in MD, home games are allowed as long as they are rake free and the cash on the table does not exceed $1,000. I never have to worry about the second part, and making the optional payment, which rolls totally into the pot and does not benefit me, as the host, any more than any other players who chooses to participate, seems to me to take care of the first part. I'm no lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. (Holiday Inn is code for the couch... in the back yard... In the nude)
 

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