Cheating in your home game? (42 Viewers)

[SetToBean]

Curious to the logic here. My dealers get tipped all night and usually by the big winners at the end of the night, too.

If someone came to my game and made a demand the first time, they'd be laughed off the premises. Maybe request is a better word, but not to get hung up on semantics... my real question is what if several players demand their own decks? How does the host know the requesting party isn't the cheater using these contacts?

There's also the issue that there are ways to unpack a deck of cards, mark them, and then reseal the deck such that it appears new. It's not actually entirely effective as an anti-cheating method.

 

[ekricket]

There's also the issue that there are ways to unpack a deck of cards, mark them, and then reseal the deck such that it appears new. It's not actually entirely effective as an anti-cheating method.

There is a story about a gambler that back around the turn of the previous century corrupted some workers at a card manufacturing plant for some casinos in Monaco. They printed marked cards from the factory, and he cleaned up for a while but was eventually caught. I think think he mainly targeted one casino.

 

[Jaxen]

We had a guy who'd inflate the figure in his stack at the end of a cash game. After a 3rd party counted down his stack and came up with the proper number he accused us of cheating him.
Now our general rule is the banker is someone other than the host, and the host counts down everyone's stack before getting paid out.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I heard a crazy story once where a cheater would plant marked sealed decks around the stores on the Boardwalk in Atlantic City and would send people out to go buy random decks of cards that would supposedly be unmarked but they were already resealed and marked. That story sounded incredibly impossible to me. I searched for it online recently and couldn't find it again to share.

 

[TheBigTater]

Nope, he started cheating after taking over dealing once our non playing dealer left for a card house in Houston.

He did not steal from the house, in fact he'd give you the shirt off his back. He sponsored all of my charity events, co hosted my meetups, and was very generous with his time and his money. Money wasn't the motivation - he's a director at a FAANG and his wife owns multiple rental houses.

He was a cheat because it satisfied the addict part of his brain, which was why everyone was so shocked.

Man that's sad indeed, he certainly went against type from what I knew/saw. Sorry to hear that.

It's a sad fact that when money is involved (no matter how small the amount) certain people will always find the temptation too hard to resist.

 

[dizzyChipper]

I heard a crazy story once where a cheater would plant marked sealed decks around the stores on the Boardwalk in Atlantic City and would send people out to go buy random decks of cards that would supposedly be unmarked but they were already resealed and marked. That story sounded incredibly impossible to me. I searched for it online recently and couldn't find it again to share.

It’s NYC and planted decks at the closest few bodegas.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Isn’t this thread titled cheating in your home game? When did I say anything about underground?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I addressed underground games only because of this sentence in the OP:

This is almost always discussed in negative light and the focus is typically on the unscrupulous characters, game politics, predatory rake and outright cheating.

 

[Jers28]

I get that. I was speaking directly to the person who acted as though I mentioned underground games. Although, my home game is in my basement. Fuck it. I run a highly suspect underground and steeply raked game full of cheats with rigged shufflers. I’ll say it!!!

*editors note - may not entirely accurate beyond the basement comment.

 

[ChaosRock]

I'd like to disagree with the last part of that statement.

Thats an easy out.

What do you think was his motivation, Matt? You think it was about the money? In other words, do you think the same guy would steal a couple of $100 bills from the bank when no one was looking also?

I tend to side with Craig's theory, although I'm not sure I'd call it "addiction", although at the end of the end, that's what it is. I think it's about ego, about being looked at as the "winner", being "smarter" than anyone else. I'm specifically talking about this case, obv, as in high stakes games the motivation to cheat is heavily tilted towards money...

 

[MatB]

What do you think was his motivation, Matt? You think it was about the money? In other words, do you think the same guy would steal a couple of $100 bills from the bank when no one was looking also?

I tend to side with Craig's theory, although I'm not sure I'd call it "addiction", although at the end of the end, that's what it is. I think it's about ego, about being looked at as the "winner", being "smarter" than anyone else. I'm specifically talking about this case, obv, as in high stakes games the motivation to cheat is heavily tilted towards money...

the ego side of it is where I feel 'addiction' is just an easy out.

'Sorry, I was just addicted to the dopamine hit of cheating my friends" doesn't sit right with me.

Are the addictive traits of someone who cheats a factor? sure. possibly, and may even be a strong factor in this case.

I think most of us know or have known people in our lives with addictive traits, but to do that to people you call friends adds another level of narcissism that goes beyond 'I had no control over it'

A heroin addict who steals $40 from their grandmothers purse because of addiction is sad, and hurts the people they love. But I understand that drive that is beyond their control.

A cheater who steals from their friends in a card game, just doesnt feel like someone who is 'chasing that hit', it feels much more like someone who enjoys act of not getting caught. its about control, its about ego. Dopamine involved? absolutely, but motivations are very different.

Just my own opinion.


FWIW; based on my time playing with this person, and based on results, im pretty sure they were not cheating when we played.



Also, let's continue this discussion at the poker table. See you in Dallas?

 

[ChaosRock]

the ego side of it is where I feel 'addiction' is just an easy out.

'Sorry, I was just addicted to the dopamine hit of cheating my friends" doesn't sit right with me.

Are the addictive traits of someone who cheats a factor? sure. possibly, and may even be a strong factor in this case.

I think most of us know or have known people in our lives with addictive traits, but to do that to people you call friends adds another level of narcissism that goes beyond 'I had no control over it'

A heroin addict who steals $40 from their grandmothers purse because of addiction is sad, and hurts the people they love. But I understand that drive that is beyond their control.

A cheater who steals from their friends in a card game, just doesnt feel like someone who is 'chasing that hit', it feels much more like someone who enjoys act of not getting caught. its about control, its about ego. Dopamine involved? absolutely, but motivations are very different.

Just my own opinion.


FWIW; based on my time playing with this person, and based on results, im pretty sure they were not cheating when we played.



Also, let's continue this discussion at the poker table. See you in Dallas?

I think we pretty much are on the same page, man. I think where we differ a bit, is that for me, there is never an excuse, it is never a way out. But I don't want to delve too deep into it as I know it's controversial.

As you said, the discussion would be much more productive in person with a drink in our hands. Unfortunately it won't be in Dallas but hopefully soon, wherever and whenever porker and chips bring us together...

 

[CraigT78]

What do you think was his motivation, Matt? You think it was about the money? In other words, do you think the same guy would steal a couple of $100 bills from the bank when no one was looking also?

I tend to side with Craig's theory, although I'm not sure I'd call it "addiction", although at the end of the end, that's what it is. I think it's about ego, about being looked at as the "winner", being "smarter" than anyone else. I'm specifically talking about this case, obv, as in high stakes games the motivation to cheat is heavily tilted towards money...

I say "addict" as he was sober from drugs and alcohol for 20 years - but I do think you've nailed when you said it was the ego - being smarter than everyone else. It was probably the rush of having the right side of a big hand.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Nope, he started cheating after taking over dealing once our non playing dealer left for a card house in Houston.

He did not steal from the house, in fact he'd give you the shirt off his back. He sponsored all of my charity events, co hosted my meetups, and was very generous with his time and his money. Money wasn't the motivation - he's a director at a FAANG and his wife owns multiple rental houses.

He was a cheat because it satisfied the addict part of his brain, which was why everyone was so shocked.

THIS. Poker and gambling opens itself up for “smart” to money to believe they are allowed to cheat and angle “dumb” money. They convince themselves it’s almost ethically allowed if they can get away with it and truthfully it’s glamorized in Hollywood movies.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Tl;dr: seems like every home game worth its salt should have cameras.

 

[ekricket]

I say "addict" as he was sober from drugs and alcohol for 20 years - but I do think you've nailed when you said it was the ego - being smarter than everyone else. It was probably the rush of having the right side of a big hand.

Not to pile on too much, but he vibes across as arrogant and slightly narcissistic. Like kicking people off a running table so he could take the table and play his games with people he wanted to impress. He gives no respect and he gets none from me.

 

[ChadGridlock]

I think it is similar to an addiction to a lot of these guys, like some sort of power thing.

Yes, it's always partially about the money, but that's not the only thing motivating them. This is why we see cheating, angling, and stealing in .25/.50 games to well off people shoplifting. You have to have security measures and accountability in place to deter even the thought of cheating. There are many people out there that can go through life without cheating or stealing, and live with the thought of being a "good" person, simply because they were only in environments with those measures of security in place. If you present them with an opportunity where there is no to little risk of being caught, they will take it.

Dealing seconds, dealing off the bottom and peaking without being caught are hard to pull off, or at least takes some practice. This means that the person doing it has malice, and should never be trusted in the future. Most of the cheating is going to come from opportunistic things, like taking a bet back, or splashing the pot with a call that is short a couple chips.

Set standards and procedure, especially with the bank. I know there can be social pressure from people when rebuying, because they just want to grab their own chips, or they will cashapp you after the hand, so they can get back in the action. Most of these complaints are honest but just naive. I have had been ripped off and stolen from, and it has been from people that I have known for years, one being my closest friends and business partner. The cheaters and thevies still value connection and friendship, but I would guess there is always a rationalization they have, and their selfishness and desire for that power supersceeds, or allows them to ignore, the impact it has on their friends.

Stay dilligent.

 

[ChadGridlock]

I heard a crazy story once where a cheater would plant marked sealed decks around the stores on the Boardwalk in Atlantic City and would send people out to go buy random decks of cards that would supposedly be unmarked but they were already resealed and marked. That story sounded incredibly impossible to me. I searched for it online recently and couldn't find it again to share.

That might have been in the book "Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler". Great read, a totally different mentality of being a "professional" back in the day. I'm always expecting embellishment when a cheat is trying to sell a book. If he didn't embellish a few stories, could he even call himself a crossroader?

 

[BarrieJ3]

You have to have security measures and accountability in place to deter even the thought of cheating. There are many people out there that can go through life without cheating or stealing, and live with the thought of being a "good" person, simply because they were only in environments with those measures of security in place. If you present them with an opportunity where there is no to little risk of being caught, they will take it.

Not playing devils advocate as I fully, fully agree. But still…I mean I’d kinda like to know still lol. Like if you’re going to cheat just because you can, I prob want to find out and know as cheaply as possible.

There’s a couple chippers here who are adamant about integrity of the game, about 2-3 folks. But in reality there’s never a way to completely prevent everything. I mean, a home game better have really nice cameras to catch the guy palming a $5 chip or two from large pots and adding them to his stack - the only way it’d see this would be to literally count stacks pre and post hand for something that simple and easy.

 

[GamingWithChips]

I mean, a home game better have really nice cameras to catch the guy palming a $5 chip or two from large pots and adding them to his stack - the only way it’d see this would be to literally count stacks pre and post hand for something that simple and easy.

Just need to implement RFID in our chips. WSOP does it, why can’t we??

 

[ChadGridlock]

Not playing devils advocate as I fully, fully agree. But still…I mean I’d kinda like to know still lol. Like if you’re going to cheat just because you can, I prob want to find out and know as cheaply as possible.

There’s a couple chippers here who are adamant about integrity of the game, about 2-3 folks. But in reality there’s never a way to completely prevent everything. I mean, a home game better have really nice cameras to catch the guy palming a $5 chip or two from large pots and adding them to his stack - the only way it’d see this would be to literally count stacks pre and post hand for something that simple and easy.

Of course you can't prevent every form of cheating, and every measure has a countermeasure. But allowing people to commonly splash the pot with their calls, without counting it out in front of everyone, letting people pre-burn, not using a cut card, allowing people to grab their own chips, is an environment that might tempt a person to take a shot, that never would have otherwise. All of those things listed, can be prevented with easy to follow rules and polite reminders that don't burden the game or people's experience.

Just because you can't protect yourself and players completely, doesn't mean you shouldn't protect them at all. Simple base level rules and procedures can protect your game from the vast majority of cheating.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Of course you can't prevent every form of cheating, and every measure has a countermeasure. But allowing people to commonly splash the pot with their calls, without counting it out in front of everyone, letting people pre-burn, not using a cut card, allowing people to grab their own chips, is an environment that might tempt a person to take a shot, that never would have otherwise. All of those things listed, can be prevented with easy to follow rules and polite reminders that don't burden the game or people's experience.

Just because you can't protect yourself and players completely, doesn't mean you shouldn't protect them at all. Simple base level rules and procedures can protect your game from the vast majority of cheating.

100%.

You’ll see after awhile here those are mostly considered absolute base minimums for any of us here. So common I forget they even exist as anti cheat/tampering, I just consider them part of the game setup.

IMO the biggest deterrent for folks at a home game with regular attendees is the fallout.

You’re losing access to a social support structure, there’s a touch of public humiliation mixed with loss of trust and respect. You’re losing access to any/all home games who share or are in contact with any of the game’s players. There’s potential financial restitution to be made. And if any of those attendees are connected to you outside of the home game, we’re now talking potential complications at work, at your kids school and sport teams, etc.

 

[ChadGridlock]

For sure, it's hard to know being new. I am trying to get my friends to understand these things. They usually host, and don't see the importance of a lot of these things. There have been a few issues, and unfortunately, it takes experiencing the bank being short to get a wake up call. I get the "that's never been a problem before" response a lot.