Cash Game Cash out notice / HnR prevention

Blind Joe

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I've never played in or run a real cash game. Whenever I host we play tournaments, probably because that's what we've always done, but I've always been interested in starting one up.

To pass the time during lock down I've been playing lots with the family and we were thinking of doing an actual (low stakes) cash game—currently we just play with deep stacks and stagnant blinds, just for fun.

The question of HnR has come up and my understanding is that the done thing is for anyone wishing to cash out has to give a notice period (eg X mins Y orbits) before they can cash out. But what's to stop someone winning big, giving notice then just folding every hand until they can cash out and take all those chips out of play?
 

Forty4

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Well they can’t log back into the table with less than they left with. How you enforce that if the software doesn’t, is up to you. Otherwise nothing prevents it unless public shaming (within the group) works.
 

Beaniman

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IMO this is ineffective. If it's micro stakes, who cares. Don't invite them back if it irks you. If it's higher stakes, they can sit on a win for a few orbits and you can't force them to play, again don't invite them back if it's not good for the game. There is no win to be had by this rule imo

I don't have a HnR rule just if you play in the same game, say after going to get dinner, you play with the same chips. No going south.
 

Blind Joe

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Well they can’t log back into the table with less than they left with. How you enforce that if the software doesn’t, is up to you. Otherwise nothing prevents it unless public shaming (within the group) works.

Not really sure what you mean here. I hadn't thought I needed software, just people sat around the table playing poker.

IMO this is ineffective. If it's micro stakes, who cares. Don't invite them back if it irks you. If it's higher stakes, they can sit on a win for a few orbits and you can't force them to play, again don't invite them back if it's not good for the game. There is no win to be had by this rule imo

I don't have a HnR rule just if you play in the same game, say after going to get dinner, you play with the same chips. No going south.

I get what you're saying about it being ineffective, which is what has always occurred to me when I've seen it mentioned, but since I don't play cash and don't read many cash threads I've never delved deeper into it.

What would happen in a casino if you sat down, busted 3 players on your first hand, quadrupled up, then stood up and cashed out?

Point taken about micro stakes not mattering all that much, I just thought there might be a way of handling this regardless of the stakes.

Also bear in mind that so far this is just me and my kids (and occasionally my wife) who are wanting to start up a cash game between ourselves, it might never transpire to a cash game with my group of regulars but hopefully it will. If that happens maybe public shaming and no invite might have to be the disincentive we use.
 

grebe

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So, @Forty4 was talking about a poker app, not live.

IF you are running a live cash game, some rules can be put in place that help mitigate this. Usually, something like 30 minutes notice is required before cash out or similar. But what it really comes down to is this: there are limited seats at a home game and invites can be a hot commodity for a well run game. Those that hit and run or do other things that bring the game down lose their invite to the game.
 

Blind Joe

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OK, so even with "notice" it essentially boils down to etiquette. I wonder how this will go down with my 7 year old :nailbite::ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

I've just starting to teach him the basics as he's been dying to play, so I've been drilling him on folding for a couple of days, getting him to the point where he can make decent judgments (for me at least, the most important lesson I learned early on to improve my game was simply to play much fewer hands). It was great when he recognised and pointed out how much an ace or king etc made him want to play the hand but a low kicker meant he should fold.

He played his first game with me and the older kids last night and for the most part kept his discipline, and when he did play a hand he was super aggressive, busted 2 of the others out with ease and everyone was very scared of being involved in a hand with him from them on :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

Beaniman

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OK, so even with "notice" it essentially boils down to etiquette. I wonder how this will go down with my 7 year old :nailbite::ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

I've just starting to teach him the basics as he's been dying to play, so I've been drilling him on folding for a couple of days, getting him to the point where he can make decent judgments (for me at least, the most important lesson I learned early on to improve my game was simply to play much fewer hands). It was great when he recognised and pointed out how much an ace or king etc made him want to play the hand but a low kicker meant he should fold.

He played his first game with me and the older kids last night and for the most part kept his discipline, and when he did play a hand he was super aggressive, busted 2 of the others out with ease and everyone was very scared of being involved in a hand with him from them on :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
This would be a valuable lesson for a 7 year old to learn. If he does this then you don't let him play the next game and explain why the others don't want to play with him given his behavior. That's a lesson that's worth a dozen micro stakes bad beats IMO.
 

JustinInMN

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OK, so even with "notice" it essentially boils down to etiquette. I wonder how this will go down with my 7 year old

Yeah I would agree, etiquette is the best way to look at this question. I think it's courtesy to give a 1-2 orbit notice. Some places like longer.

But home games required different etiquette than casinos because the waiting lists are not "endless." This hasn't been an issue in my games FWIW, most players are willing to go 2-3 buy ins deep and are polite about letting me know when they plan to leave in advance.
 

Eloe2000

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Tournament directors and floor bosses have an element of discretion to take action to preserve the integrity of the game. If it was my house, I would just say “yeah that’s not happening. You called out your exit and now you are out.” You don’t have to overthink it. No one is going to question that ruling and if they are they aren’t welcomed back.
 

tabletalker7

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The best way to deal with hit and run specialists is to not invite them - I am careful who I invite, and when I go to someone else's game I let them know from jump street a certain time when I will be calling it quits. Usually I am good for the whole session, but occasionally someone will have a session that goes til dawn. My brains can't go that long, but the host knew before I showed up that (let's just give an example here) 2am is it for me.
 

davethesave

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Last game we had before the quarantine, a guy at the table announced he was playing one last hand (to be fair he had already mentioned earlier that he would be leaving soon). I should've made him announce full rotation... but it was late in the game so the game was doomed to break... long story short... he announces he is playing one last hand, gets dealt KK, and busts two guys... very annoying to all and he should've stuck around a bit just to soothe the pain, but game broke with the 2 busted, and bigstacks already looking for his jacket...
 

Alex Lundstrum

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The reason HnR is not okay in a home game (and why it really doesn't matter at a casino, IMO) is that it is essentially telling the table, "I'm here for your money, don't give a hoot about your company."

For this reason, I don't find a required warning to be much good. If someone takes down a massive pot, announces that they are leaving in two rounds, then folds every hand, I would rather have them leave and save me the effort of pitching them cards. In either case, this person has killed their portion of the action and wasted a seat at my table that could have been filled by someone else. I will be thinking long and hard about inviting this person back.

And finally, any time someone says HnR isn't okay because "you have to give people a chance to win their money back," throw something at them and explain to them that that's the stupidest thing you've ever heard! :p
 

legonick

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Last game we had before the quarantine, a guy at the table announced he was playing one last hand (to be fair he had already mentioned earlier that he would be leaving soon). I should've made him announce full rotation... but it was late in the game so the game was doomed to break... long story short... he announces he is playing one last hand, gets dealt KK, and busts two guys... very annoying to all and he should've stuck around a bit just to soothe the pain, but game broke with the 2 busted, and bigstacks already looking for his jacket...

Did he announce when he had already been dealt the hand and knew what he had? If so, oooo, dirty.
 

davethesave

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Did he announce when he had already been dealt the hand and knew what he had? If so, oooo, dirty.

NO! He announced it... then the hand was dealt. I was a witness as I am the host... he told me and literally the cards we dealt. Kinda sour but I had to begrudgingly vouch for him that he DID announce it.
 

LotsOfChips

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I have a player that doesn't like to play cash because she says she feels pressured to stay if she is up (even a little bit), but can't stay later because of work the next day. I explained to her that there is no obligation to remain in a cash game, but that courtesy and etiquette is such that you should give some notice before leaving (unless you bust out). I suggested a couple of orbits or 15-20 minutes as appropriate, or better yet if you plan on leaving before the game normally ends then just state when you sit down that you will be leaving at or around a certain time, and give a reminder 5-10 minutes before then.

People may still comment if you are ahead when you leave, but if you have given clear advance notice that is usually just "yanking your chain". You have to leave sometime, and it shouldn't matter if you are ahead or behind. But deliberate Hit n' Run - bad etiquette for sure.

BTW, Poker Mavens has a "Rathole Timer" function that prevents a player from leaving and then buying in at lower stack size. You either have to bring your whole stack with you if you return while the timer is ticking, or you are prevented from returning.
 

Mr Winberg

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How big of a problem is this in practice? I've read a lot about it here at PCF, but I have never seen it at my own cash games nor when I have been invited. I suspect that this is because our stakes are really low so people are there for poker, not money. It could also be that I am just lucky that I haven't attracted any a-holes yet...
 

StatTracker

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Please do not create these arbitrary rules! It creates frustration when emergencies or odd situations arrive in cash games. Players looking to cash out advantageously will just sit there for the duration (minutes or orbits) and not play a hand, only giving back a few big blinds, while players who genuinely need to cash out will be out of luck.

Simply do not invite hit and run players in the future! It is their money. If they chose to leave despite player protests, which is technically their right, just don't re-invite.

Rules must always be enforced to ensure a fair game. Creation of rules surrounding quick cashouts are ineffective when comparing it to not inviting a player back.
 

Mr Winberg

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Please do not create these arbitrary rules! It creates frustration when emergencies or odd situations arrive in cash games. Players looking to cash out advantageously will just sit there for the duration (minutes or orbits) and not play a hand, only giving back a few big blinds, while players who genuinely need to cash out will be out of luck.

Simply do not invite hit and run players in the future! It is their money. If they chose to leave despite player protests, which is technically their right, just don't re-invite.

Rules must always be enforced to ensure a fair game. Creation of rules surrounding quick cashouts are ineffective when comparing it to not inviting a player back.
I hit Like here because I think I agree. If you have players that want to hit and run, that means they are douche bags who are there for money, not company:
The reason HnR is not okay in a home game (and why it really doesn't matter at a casino, IMO) is that it is essentially telling the table, "I'm here for your money, don't give a hoot about your company."

I don't think having rules will stop people from being dbags, it just might hide it a little. On the contrary, the rule (if effective) could actually hide the fact that someone is a dbag!

With that said, I am blissfully ignorant of this since I haven't had this problem. I realize that it might not be black and white. If a really good friend wins a monster pot and cashes out, I think the first step is talking to him about it. If he for some reason just doesn't see the problem, then maybe a rule is the way to go?
 

Mr Winberg

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I'd be very interested in hearing some stories:
How big of a problem is this in practice?

And not stories about the dbag with a capital D who took the money, spit beer in you face and laughed as he made his way out. Those scenarios are pretty clear cut and are solved with bans, not rules. I'm more interested in grey area type situations.
 

Blind Joe

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So we played our first micro stakes family cash game last night. 6 handed, 5p/5p blinds and everyone bought in for £5. Fairly short stacked at 100BB I know but as a first time we didn't fancy going with bigger buy ins, plus it was a spare of the moment suggestion so we didn't have much cash around anyway.

We started at 6:30pm and mutually decided to play till 9pm (we don't usually stay up much later as my wife has to get up very early for work) but as the cut off approached everyone started talking of extending as they were enjoying it so we continued.

Three players busted out some time after 10pm (one being my wife which allowed her to go get some sleep), one bought back in and the 4 of us just kept on playing. My youngest daughter cashed out at 11:30pm for £3.50 then we carried on 3 handed until midnight — we would have played longer but couldn't really stay up any later; I can see how some of you guys (from reading your threads) play for epic lengths of time, it's just so easy to carry on playing!

I cashed out for just over £15 in case you were wondering :cool Yeah I know I'm the most experienced of us (though most of you lot would rinse me) and I'm playing against my kids but in my defence they were my adult kids, not my younger ones (yes, we're a big clan).

Anyway it was a great night and I loved playing my first cash game. It would be nice to get my regular group into it, and all points and replies taken on board I'd probably explain and emphasise the etiquette of cashing out rather than enforcing hard rules that can be easily circumvented.
 

LotsOfChips

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Please do not create these arbitrary rules! It creates frustration when emergencies or odd situations arrive in cash games. Players looking to cash out advantageously will just sit there for the duration (minutes or orbits) and not play a hand, only giving back a few big blinds, while players who genuinely need to cash out will be out of luck.

Simply do not invite hit and run players in the future! It is their money. If they chose to leave despite player protests, which is technically their right, just don't re-invite.

Rules must always be enforced to ensure a fair game. Creation of rules surrounding quick cashouts are ineffective when comparing it to not inviting a player back.
I'd be very interested in hearing some stories:
Two stories - one already shown above about a player who won early, stayed way later than she wanted to because of some misguided belief that she couldn't leave when she was ahead, under any circumstances.

Second story - my very first game at @Lemonzest's home game - .25/.25 NLHE cash game, $20 typical buy in. Game started at 7:00, I went up early and stayed up for the rest of the game. At around 10:30 I realized I hadn't told everyone that I needed to leave at around 11:00. I gave 30 minutes notice, played in any hands that were worth playing, and at a few minutes before 11: 00 announced I would call it a night after another two orbits (it was 5 or 6 handed by then, so that was another 8 or 10 minutes of play). The response from the host and other players every time I mentioned leaving at some time was "leave whenever you want". Still not sure if that was a subtle "leave now, don't win any more from us, lucky newby", it seemed more like a "we don't worry about it, if you want to go, don't worry about us". I left with around $95 on a $20 buy in.

Point is, everyone has to leave sometime. Courtesy and respect is such that you tell the host and the other players in advance your plans. It's not so much "Arbitrary Rules" that "create frustration", as it is setting expectations for behavior. If the phone rings and a player's kid is sick, nobody is going to say anything other than wishing the player well (or they would be the one dis-invited). If a player wins a huge pot and then immediately packs up to go, or says he will stay for 2 orbits and then folds every hand, well then he is clearly not someone who is likely to be invited back. For everyone else it provides a framework of expectations that they can abide by. Those expectations were in place in home games I played in 30-40 years ago, so they are not new, although they aren't in any rule book I have ever read.
 

Hopeinaday

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I guess it’s basic etiquette to give some lead time before leaving. I usually call 1-2 orbits ahead for sudden departures or if I’m really feeling tired. Can’t do the all nighters some of the games I go for do. Haha
 

upNdown

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The response from the host and other players every time I mentioned leaving at some time was "leave whenever you want". Still not sure if that was a subtle "leave now, don't win any more from us, lucky newby", it seemed more like a "we don't worry about it, if you want to go, don't worry about us". I left with around $95 on a $20 buy in.
Probably just decent guys being polite. My guess is that they were annoyed that you were taking 5 buyins off the table, early. The notice is nice, but don't think it's a cure-all. Bottom line is that when you leave a home cash game early and ahead, you're leaving an empty seat, and taking money off the table that won't be replaced. Nobody like that.
 

legonick

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NO! He announced it... then the hand was dealt. I was a witness as I am the host... he told me and literally the cards we dealt. Kinda sour but I had to begrudgingly vouch for him that he DID announce it.

Lucky guy! Not his fault, and we can't really expect him to play the hand any differently.

This whole thread is a good +1 for tournaments. If someone needs to leave early they are the ones leaving money on the table! Granted it's just a +1 for tournaments when there are other +1s for cash games.
 

LotsOfChips

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The notice is nice, but don't think it's a cure-all. Bottom line is that when you leave a home cash game early and ahead, you're leaving an empty seat, and taking money off the table that won't be replaced. Nobody like(s) that.
So I don't really understand why you feel that way, or what exactly you are suggesting. Should players have to stay until the end of the game if they are up? Is there an obligation to stay until the bitter end because you are ahead? I guess I disagree, although leaving because you are up is a different matter.

The social aspect of the game is supposedly why the group plays as much as anything, so being a douchebag and leaving immediately after scoring large, or refusing to play during the run-out period before you leave does send a message about a person's character and how much they value that social component, so yeah, fair game about calling out or banning douchebags. But expecting a player to stay just because they are ahead? Really?

Hell, I've even been at a game where the host won a couple of huge hands, smoked a proffered joint and passed out on the couch 10 minutes later, leaving his stack on the table (not intentional, just wasn't used to smoking and it hit him hard). The rest of us were a bit disappointed that we weren't able to win any of it back, but shit happens, and we all laughed, got over it, and played for another 2 hours. (We did joke about putting him all in blind until his stack was gone, but figured he would probably felt us all from the coma he was in, so we just let sleeping hosts lie).

As I said, everybody has to leave sometime. Not everyone can commit to staying the whole night, especially when some games might go on until the wee hours. I'd like to understand why it's such a no-no to leave if you make your intentions clear well in advance and don't pull some "win big and refuse to enter any hands afterwards" crap.
 

JustinInMN

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I look at it this way, so long as everyone commits to play most of the hours of the game, I don't care if people leave an hour or so early.

When a game gets down to 5 handed, I think it's nice to provide 30 minutes notice so everyone is on the same page as to when the game will break or the other players can discuss if they want to continue 4 handed, the departure that breaks the game, won't seem so sudden, especially if a huge pot happens as mentioned in this thread.

If you are planning to leave earlier than that, I think it's courteous to let others know in advance, especially the host that has to estimate the game's viability. Otherwise you are breaking commitments to other players that have arranged their schedule to be at the game for a few hours and are expecting action.
 

upNdown

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So I don't really understand why you feel that way, or what exactly you are suggesting. Should players have to stay until the end of the game if they are up? Is there an obligation to stay until the bitter end because you are ahead? I guess I disagree, although leaving because you are up is a different matter.

The social aspect of the game is supposedly why the group plays as much as anything, so being a douchebag and leaving immediately after scoring large, or refusing to play during the run-out period before you leave does send a message about a person's character and how much they value that social component, so yeah, fair game about calling out or banning douchebags. But expecting a player to stay just because they are ahead? Really?

Hell, I've even been at a game where the host won a couple of huge hands, smoked a proffered joint and passed out on the couch 10 minutes later, leaving his stack on the table (not intentional, just wasn't used to smoking and it hit him hard). The rest of us were a bit disappointed that we weren't able to win any of it back, but shit happens, and we all laughed, got over it, and played for another 2 hours. (We did joke about putting him all in blind until his stack was gone, but figured he would probably felt us all from the coma he was in, so we just let sleeping hosts lie).

As I said, everybody has to leave sometime. Not everyone can commit to staying the whole night, especially when some games might go on until the wee hours. I'd like to understand why it's such a no-no to leave if you make your intentions clear well in advance and don't pull some "win big and refuse to enter any hands afterwards" crap.
It's not the worst sin in the world, but it's annoying. And it's all relative.
You said you left at 11. Was the game wrapping at 12? Or was it going until 2, or later?
You walked out with $95 at a $20 buy in game. How much cash was on the table? If everybody was only in for 1 or two buyin's, you took a lot of money off that table. If everybody was in for 3 or 4 buyins, not so much.
And I know it shouldn't, but why you left matters too. If you left at 11 because you work in the ER and your shift started at 12, fine. If you left at 11 because you're working at 8 in the morning and wanted plenty of sleep - that might be annoying if the others guys work in the morning too.
I'm not attacking you personally, I'm just telling you how other players feel.
BUT IF YOU IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE, READ THIS - It's not about why you left, hit and run or otherwise. It's about the effect your leaving has on the game. There's an empty seat and fewer chips on the table. It's not ALL about socializing. if it was, you'd all be sitting around a table with no cards. It's about socializing while you play cards. And if your leaving has a real effect on the card game, then it is what it is.
 

JustinInMN

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Let me try and offer an example that's more concrete.

Say I schedule a game from 3-11 pm. I have 9 players say they are interested. But two will have to leave at 6pm, and another at 6:30, they are courteous enoguh to tell the host and I can figure the game is probably still viable 6 handed for the rest of the night with the other players committing. If the game happens to break at 9:30 or 10 instead of 11, I am not going to cry about it either.

So say then someone that didn't announce suddenly decides to leave at 6:15 (hit and run on a big pot) and another guy busts out at 6:45. (Only brought one buy-in.) Those two players are being rude to the four players that expected a 6 handed game to at least a few more hours, imo.

If all these players made their intentions known to the host, in the first place. If I knew we only had four players after 6:45 I could have checked around to see if everyone was cool breaking at 7 or deciding to call off the game, either way enables the other players to make other plans if the game isn't as viable as one would assume a game with nine players to be.

I get emergencies happen, and I am good with leeway if you played 70-80% of the scheduled time and the game breaks a little early. But I think in the circumstances of the two players above, they owed more courtesy to the host and the other players that committed to being there too.
 
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