Cash Game Cash Game breakdown and betting structure : request for feed-back (1 Viewer)

Kid_Eastwood

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Hi,

I've done the design for my custom cash game set (see here) and I'm posting here to get your feed-back on my breakdown.

First, I'll start with my needs.

Number players :
6-8 the very most of the time. On some occasions, we are full table (10) but it's seldom.​

Games :
My group is playing mostly NLHE. But I want to introduce some H.O.R.S.E. sessions in the rotation.​

Limits :
NLHE :​
Mostly NL20 (10c-20c)​
NL10 (10c-10c) after a tournament​
I also want to cover limit NL50 (50c-50c)​
H.O.R.S.E. :​
Buy-in 5-10€ : Bring-in 10c, small bet 20c, big bet 50c and dealer's (it's a self dealt game so even in stud games the button is rotating) ante 50c.​
Buy-in 10-20€ : Bring-in 20c, small bet 50c, big bet €1 and ante 10c​

The breakdown I figured out is :
10c x 120
50c x 60 (like for tournament sets with T500 and T1000, it's not required to have a lot because only one shall be required per bet)
€1 x 160
€5 x 160
€20 x 40

My questions :
  1. What do you think about the breakdown ?
  2. Does the H.O.R.S.E. betting structure seems good for you ? I tried to find something that would be playable with a set not fully dedicated to limit games.
  3. Regarding the first H.O.R.S.E betting structure (buy-in €10-€20), it will encourage loose play given the implied odds in my opinion. What do you think ?

@BGinGA and @JustinInMN , I would really appreciate to have your feed-back on this.

Kid.
 
50c x 60 (like for tournament sets with T500 and T1000, it's not required to have a lot because only one shall be required per bet)

Right, this is kind of your "bridge" to the singles. 60 seems like the right choice to me. 40 was too tight when I was doing tests 6 handed. I am planning to put 80 in play on the next occasion I host a micro game

10c x 120
My only issue with this choice is 120 * 10 will put an awkward number in your bank, since this is a total of 12. I would either drop this to 100 (10) or bump it to 150. (15)

€1 x 160
€5 x 160
€20 x 40

This seems pretty good to me, I would consider adding to the singles or fives if you can for the higher stake games.

Maybe look at this.

150 * 0.10 = 15
50 * 0.50 = 25
200 * 1 = 200
160 * 5 = 800
40 * 20 = 800

Bank 1840.

Or

100 * 0.10 = 10
60 * 0.50 = 30
200 * 1 = 200
200 * 5 = 1000
40 * 20 = 800

Bank 2040.

More full racks in these breakdowns :).

Buy-in 5-10€ : Bring-in 10c, small bet 20c, big bet 50c and dealer's (it's a self dealt game so even in stud games the button is rotating) ante 50c.

Players will only have 10 bets in the 5€ buy in. Way too shallow. I would cut those limits to 0.1/0.2 with a 0.2 btn ante. I would cut the btn ante to 0.3 for the 10€ buy in. For the 20€ individual antes as you have are fine.
 
I think sun fly also has a minimum order of 1000 now that I think about it. So maybe you just go down the road I went and do

200 * 0.10
100 * 0.50
300 * 1
300 * 5
100 * 20

Bank: 3870

This is at least credible for a two table future up to 0.50-0.50
 
Thanks a lot for your answers !

My only issue with this choice is 120 * 10 will put an awkward number in your bank, since this is a total of 12. I would either drop this to 100 (10) or bump it to 150. (15)

In fact I selected 120 because with 6 players it means a barrel per player and with 8 players it means 15 per player.

If 10 players, I would only issue 10 per players but it's quite seldom that I have 10 players in my cash game.

Players will only have 10 bets in the 5€ buy in. Way too shallow. I would cut those limits to 0.1/0.2 with a 0.2 btn ante. I would cut the btn ante to 0.3 for the 10€ buy in. For the 20€ individual antes as you have are fine.

I was just meaning a range of buyin. But indeed, 5€ would be too short.
 
I think sun fly also has a minimum order of 1000 now that I think about it. So maybe you just go down the road I went and do

200 * 0.10
100 * 0.50
300 * 1
300 * 5
100 * 20

Bank: 3870

This is at least credible for a two table future up to 0.50-0.50

They did not tell me about a min order. In fact they just sent me a quote for a 600 chip set...
If they finally tell me about a min. order, I'll go with your suggested breakdown !
 
They did not tell me about a min order. In fact they just sent me a quote for a 600 chip set...
If they finally tell me about a min. order, I'll go with your suggested breakdown !

It's possible that's a USA rule too I suppose as shipping may be more cost prohibitive than to the EU.
 
HORSE:

Fixed-Limit games should have a minimum buy-in of at least 17 big bets, since that is the amount needed to cover a single hand if all streets in stud games are capped including ante (12 big bets for HE and O8; no ante in shared board card games). Nothing worse than having the nuts and running out of chips needed to pound the pot.

Both HORSE structures are fine (50c button ante, 10c bring-in, 20c/50c bets with 10c/20c blinds, and 10c individual antes, 20c bring-in, 50c/$1 bets with 20c/50c blinds), although the minimum buy-in amount for each structure should be adjusted per above (and no need for an upper limit, since it provides no advantage to the player). Or you can slice the smaller game even smaller, as Justin suggested. Nothing wrong with dropping individual antes and using a 50c button ante in the bigger game, too (or $1, if 10-handed).

Set Breakdown:

You are trying to create a set to cover the following games for up to 10 players:
10c/20c NLHE
10c/10c NLHE
50c/50c NLHE
20c/50c Limit
50c/$1 Limit

I think I'd want 200x 10c chips if playing 10c/10c or 10c/20c NLHE, and that's certainly not too many 10c chips for a 10-player 20c/50c limit set (with 10c/20c blinds). You can get by with just 100x 50c chips (even with 50c/50c blinds), since you have $1 chips in play. I'd go with 200x $1 chips, 160x $5, and 40x $20 chips, so I'd create this 700-chip set to cover that wide a range of stakes, limits, and players:

200 x 10c
100 x 50c
200 x $1
160 x $5
40 x $20

for a total bank of $1870, or $185/player if 10-handed for your biggest game (about 3-1/2 buy-ins each).

If the NL games start playing really big, you'll probably want another rack of $5s.

Afaik, Sun-Fly's minimum order size is 300 chips.
 
Thank you both for your valuable feedback.

@BGinGA I would only play limit games in 8-max. When I have 10 players, it'll be only NL So there 200 x 10c would still be useful. I'll think if it woths it knowing that it's really seldom I've 10 players for cash game.

For stud games, total = big is where my doubt was.

The alternatives would be :
Limit 20c - 50c
Bring-in : 10c (can't go lower)
Table ante : 20c (or 30c) instead of 50c
Small bet : 20c
Big bet : 50c

Limit 50c - €1
Bring-in : 20c
Table ante : 50c (instead of €1)
Small bet : 50c
Big bet : €1
 
Maybe a good compromise for 600 chips would be :
- 160 x 10c
- 80 x 50c
- 160 x €1
- 160 x €5
- 40 x €20

Anyway, my prod slot will right after Chinese New Year, so I've still one month to decide.

Thanks again for your valuable input !
 
200 .10c would be useful for the limit games, for NL it would drive me nuts to have more than 10 .10c per player on the table if you are planning to put .50c on the table at the same time.

But you can't drop .50c to less than a rack and two racks would be better - otherwise every street in the limit games people will constantly be making change between the .50 and $1 chips - it will slow the game down and no-one will know how many bets are being made - two .50 chips is clearly a raise but every time a $1 chip is put in the pot, either raise will have to be stated OR that guy is going to need change, and if someone subsequently raises then the guy with the $1 chip is going to have verbally declare call or he is still going to need change if he folds. Then you add in the people not paying attention and every hand there will be questions - did you raise or call? - how many bets is it? Whose turn is it? etc etc.
 
200 .10c would be useful for the limit games, for NL it would drive me nuts to have more than 10 .10c per player on the table if you are planning to put .50c on the table at the same time.

But you can't drop .50c to less than a rack and two racks would be better - otherwise every street in the limit games people will constantly be making change between the .50 and $1 chips - it will slow the game down and no-one will know how many bets are being made - two .50 chips is clearly a raise but every time a $1 chip is put in the pot, either raise will have to be stated OR that guy is going to need change, and if someone subsequently raises then the guy with the $1 chip is going to have verbally declare call or he is still going to need change if he folds. Then you add in the people not paying attention and every hand there will be questions - did you raise or call? - how many bets is it? Whose turn is it? etc etc.

Limit will be played at 8-max only. So if I adjust what you say to 8-max, the 600 breakdown I just mentionned here above would be fine.
 
The problem is you are trying to get a set that does everything. For NL, anything more than a rack for the blinds is a waste but for LIMIT, for a good limit set, minimum of a rack for the workhorse chips per person is recommended. But based on your limits, you will need .10 and .50 chips for the workhorse chips, so even if you split them 50/50, you would want 400 chips of each. Can you do it with less? Sure but the game play won't be as smooth and I wouldn't try it with less than 50 chips of each workhorse chip per person, so that's 200 .10 and 200 .50

Overall it would be best and more versatile to raise your limits to .25/.25 for NL and a single limit of .25/.50 for LIMIT, then you can get piles of quarters and not have to split your workhorse chips into two denominations and you can reduce the denominations needed from 5 to 4, (use .25 and eliminate the .10 and .50) allowing for more chips per denomination.

I know you probably don't want to raise the limits but with inflation sooner rather than later you will find you don't want to use the dimes anymore. I started my limit games almost 10 years ago as $1/2, using .10 for antes, then moved up to $2/4 with .25 antes, now we are playing $4/8 with .50 antes and my dimes gather dust on the shelf. A $100 just doesn't seem as much as it used to. My NL games started as $60 max, then I moved it to $80 max and now it's $100 max (.50/.50 blinds) and my last limit game in Nov, ($4/8 with a half kill to $6/12) everyone wanted to buy in for $200.

I know it depends on what your players are comfortable with but if you allow buyins from $10-$25 and go with .25/.25 blinds or even a single .25 blind, soon everyone will buy in for the max.
 
The 2nd HORSE structure I oriiginally planned wss
Limits 50c - 1
Ante = 10c
Bring-in or small blind = 20c

To get rid of the 10c (which would only be used for ante and bring-in) in this betting structure, I was thinking of changing it to :

Limits 50c - 1
Table ante = 50c
Bring-in or small blind = 50c (= complétion or BB)

@BGinGA and @JustinInMN , would it tilt you to have bring-in= completion in a stud game ? To me it's basically having SB = BB but I'm not very experienced in stud games...
 
Having the bring-in equal to the Small Bet is unconventional, but not overly harsh on the bring-in player imo. It also will not affect the initial pot size, provided you allow a bring-in and limit the raises to just 3 on the first betting level (since there is no 'complete' action available). For comparison:
  • With a 50c Bring-in and 50c Small Bet: 50c bring-in plus three 50c raises = $2.00 max per player plus antes
  • With a 20c Bring-in and 50c Small Bet: 20c bring-in plus 50c complete and three 50c raises = $2.00 max per player plus antes
The 4th street betting will also be Small Bets (50c bet plus 3 raises max.), followed by Big Bets ($1 bet plus 3 raises max.) on 5th, 6th, and 7th streets.

However, I'd rather see the table ante upped to $1 (equivalent to 10 x 10c) vs being only 50c total. With 8 players, I think $1 in total antes is better than just 50c.

In non-stud games, the big blind and small blind are forced bets to start creating the pots and provide incentive for the other players to play. In stud games, the antes and bring-in perform those functions (no-option forced money going into the pot). All other bets in either game are optional.
 
Thanks @BGinGA , in HORSE, it's max 8 at the table. €1 / 8 equals to 0.125€ which is quite high for a 50c-€1 game I think.

Sklansky defines a normal ante game if ante is higher than 5% average betting limit and lower than 15% average betting limit. Lower than 5% it's a low ante game and higher than 15% it's a big ante game.

I think he spots a nice definition of a normal ante game. So if I'm 6 (or 8) handed, I'll be good with table ante = small bet.

You're right that for a 10 handed game a table ante = Big Bet would be good but in my cash game it's not applicable (6 to 8 players).

And yes, I cap at one bet + 3 raises.
 
Maybe it's just better to keep individual ante of 10c and a bring-in of 20c.

I'll experiment when I'll get my set.
 
Maybe it's just better to keep individual ante of 10c and a bring-in of 20c.

I'll experiment when I'll get my set.

I think a common 2/4 limit stud structure is .50 ante 1 bring in. So dividing by 4 for the 0.50/1 limit equivalent gives you 0.125 ante and 0.25 bring in.

So I think the bring is too big if it equals the smaller limit. It really should be closer to 0.25. so if you were doing quarters, I would suggest 0.75 or 1 for a table ante and 0.25 bring in. Since it seems you are doing dime-half, I think you keep the dimes in play for this. Do dime individual ante and play 0.20 or 0.30 for the force. Each player probably won't need more than 10 dimes anyway.
 
Indeed @JustinInMN . I had some reading on 2+2 and bring-in = small bet is not ideal. They even then recommend no bring-in over a full small bet bring-in.

So it could be for instance :
Limits 0.5 - 1
Table ante = 1 (50c would be too small probably)
Bring-in = 0, high card acts first. If everyone checks, then add a table ante and redeal.

Or stay with 10c chips :
Limits 0.5 - 1
Individual ante = 10c / table ante = 50c
Bring-in = 20c
 
So it could be for instance :
Limits 0.5 - 1
Table ante = 1 (50c would be too small probably)
Bring-in = 0, high card acts first. If everyone checks, then add a table ante and redeal.

You really do need the force on 3rd Street. We played without it for years but what happens is hands just take longer when 3rd Street checks around so frequently. (My uncles are old school.) Had to change it a couple years ago and the game is much better for it. You can probably sooner do without the ante than a force, but I think the bottom line is, you need something smaller than a 0.50 chip for 0.50/1 limit. For 1/2 limit you could probably consolidate and fine a way to make that a base chip.
 
I 'd future-proof my set against player numbers and stakes growth, and get
150x .10
100x .50
200x 1E
200x 5E
50x 20E

Other than that (and apologies for the hijack, but this may be of interest to the OP too), I wonder if there's any simpler yet reasonable way to play stud.
Possibly with a just a relatively small Dealer Ante and then Pot-Limit, with checking possible from the first round?
 
You really do need the force on 3rd Street. We played without it for years but what happens is hands just take longer when 3rd Street checks around so frequently. (My uncles are old school.) Had to change it a couple years ago and the game is much better for it. You can probably sooner do without the ante than a force, but I think the bottom line is, you need something smaller than a 0.50 chip for 0.50/1 limit. For 1/2 limit you could probably consolidate and fine a way to make that a base chip.

Indeed. So basically this :

Limits 0.5 - 1
Individual ante = 10c / table ante = 50c
Bring-in = 20c

I 'd future-proof my set against player numbers and stakes growth, and get
150x .10
100x .50
200x 1E
200x 5E
50x 20E

Other than that (and apologies for the hijack, but this may be of interest to the OP too), I wonder if there's any simpler yet reasonable way to play stud.
Possibly with a just a relatively small Dealer Ante and then Pot-Limit, with checking possible from the first round?

My breakdown will be :
160 x 0.10
80 x 0.50
160 x 1
160 x 5
40 x 20

Covers 8 players HORSE, 10 players NL or PL games for a wide range of stakes.
 
You really do need the force on 3rd Street. We played without it for years but what happens is hands just take longer when 3rd Street checks around so frequently. (My uncles are old school.) Had to change it a couple years ago and the game is much better for it.
I wonder if there's any simpler yet reasonable way to play stud.
Possibly with a just a relatively small Dealer Ante and then Pot-Limit, with checking possible from the first round?
Even with fixed limit and no bring-in, you can always just implement a no-checking rule on 3rd street -- players must bet, fold (or call/raise, if previous bettor) to get a fourth card.
 
Even with fixed limit and no bring-in, you can always just implement a no-checking rule on 3rd street -- players must bet, fold (or call/raise, if previous bettor) to get a fourth card.
Other than that, would it be correct / playable to do PL, with 4 betting rounds? (six-card stud, with a seventh community card dealt face-up in the final dealing/betting round, together with the 6th individual card (face-down).
 
Other than that, would it be correct / playable to do PL, with 4 betting rounds? (six-card stud, with a seventh community card dealt face-up in the final dealing/betting round, together with the 6th individual card (face-down).
Playable, but likely expensive with a lot of variance. As a drawing game, there are going to be some really big pots when played pot-limit. With shallow stacks, that means pretty much a shove-fest on most hands, all-in long before the cards run out. With really deep stacks, it's adds an element of skill, but with really high variance. Not for the faint of heart. Played Stud8 (hi-lo), even more so.
 
I play .50/1 limit fairly regularly. I use a mix of .25 and $1 chips. At first I was using a non-denom chip as .10 for .10 antes and .20 bring in. I switched to a varying table ante based on player count and a .25 bring in just to eliminate the extra chips.

2-3 players = .25 ante
4-6 players = .50 ante
7-8 players = .75 ante
 
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