JJTSyracuse
New Member
The biggest challenge BY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE for us so far is finding players. It will be the one thing that gets a night cancelled and thee one thing to end our game in general.
Biggest challenge Hosting a home poker game? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Munchies11
- Start date
Issue I’m having with a player (let’s call him Nico) who attends my home game about 75% of the time and is well-known to our group. Good, profitable player who is not as close to the group as most, but gets along with everyone well enough. So:
So last week this player Nico (1) was playing a poker on his phone on his lap during the game, according to two players near him, though I couldn't see it; (2) only brought one buy-in then asked to use Venmo to rebuy, and (3) was tipping ridiculously light compared to the rest of the table — so much so that other players noticed it, and one of them actually gave the dealer an extra $20 at the end of the night to make up for Nico’s stinginess. Note that Nico has a very healthy poker bankroll and has been quite profitable in my game, long-term.
How would you handle this player? My three main options seem to be:
(1) I’ve asked players repeatedly not to play other games (e.g. PokerBros) on their phones.
(2) I also the week before this game asked players to not use Venmo unless it is an absolute emergency (forgot their wallet at home, etc.) since I’ve been winding up with a large Venmo balance weekly which I really don’t want to carry. I told them to bring all the cash they need for the night, which is how the game has been for years until relatively recently.
(3) I also gently reminded the whole group that while tipping the dealer is voluntary, the game is unraked so they are way ahead of casino/private games even if they tip generously; and that if too many people get stingy, we might have to go back to self-dealt games which everyone agrees would suck in many ways.
So last week this player Nico (1) was playing a poker on his phone on his lap during the game, according to two players near him, though I couldn't see it; (2) only brought one buy-in then asked to use Venmo to rebuy, and (3) was tipping ridiculously light compared to the rest of the table — so much so that other players noticed it, and one of them actually gave the dealer an extra $20 at the end of the night to make up for Nico’s stinginess. Note that Nico has a very healthy poker bankroll and has been quite profitable in my game, long-term.
How would you handle this player? My three main options seem to be:
(A) Gently remind him of all three requests/reminders which he totally disregarded, giving him a chance to explain himself and shape up next game;
(B) Give him a lecture and a two-game timeout;
(C) Just axe him from the invite list entirely since it seems like he does not respect the game or host.
Note that I can afford to lose this player, though I am not so totally flush with regs that I am that eager to burn them for no good reason. That said, I was really annoyed.
MrCatPants
Full House
Call him and do number one in a nudgy way. "You may not be aware but your tipping is light compared to everyone else. Ive noticed and its important we all pitch in a similar way to manage to cost of our dealer." Follow up with the Venmo. If hes slow and never knows its his action bring up the multitasking. If not would let tbat one go not to pile on.
I'd go with a mixture of A and B. It wouldn't be a gentle reminder cause the guy is clearly comfortable with poker and this type of game. I'd speak honestly: he's profiting off the game, he's a good player, we love to have him, but you've found some of his behavior disrespectful. Give him a chance to explain for sure. You're not Caesar handing down a ruling, you're telling him that others in the game don't like playing with him. You're not a friend you're a host and you want your players and dealers happy.
If he rolls his eyes? Oh well, tell him to have a nice life.
drdr
Flush
Go for gradual improvement, split the source. Pick one to pull him up on in private. Maybe have a co-host/wingman gently tackle one of the other issues during play. See how that goes before going further.
The Venmo stuff is easy. Just say, "I really don't have it this week. Sorry. There is an ATM just 5 minutes away." This is a great reminder that it's a courtesy, and they need to bring cash.
He knows the rule if he's on his phone and it's in his lap.
I wouldn't say anything to him about tipping, I might when I win a big pot off him, tip by tossing the chips higher than usual and say something like, 'Well since Nico won't tip you, here let me tip you with his chips', I bet he won't miss again for the rest of the night.
Or you can wait till he wins a pot and tip for him, that gets to some people. 'Oh, uh well here, here's a tip, thanks for the hand'
He knows the rule if he's on his phone and it's in his lap.
I wouldn't say anything to him about tipping, I might when I win a big pot off him, tip by tossing the chips higher than usual and say something like, 'Well since Nico won't tip you, here let me tip you with his chips', I bet he won't miss again for the rest of the night.
Or you can wait till he wins a pot and tip for him, that gets to some people. 'Oh, uh well here, here's a tip, thanks for the hand'
roughrabbit
High Hand
Read another great response on PCF but not sure which thread it was, if you're game isn't entertaining enough for someone to stay off their phone after being reminded maybe they are not a great fit for your group.
C, after a few weeks if he asks why, explain to him your game is the best in town, and you prefer splashy cash players who r not on their phone.
It's too funny, how cheap some people are in weird ways. I'd just have a private talk with him like some mentioned, then if no luck, like some said call him out during the game. Hey I'll tip for Nico etc.. now after that, if it's not registering in his brain see ya!!! Mine isn't with poker the weird part is during family events we play screw, 31, LRC simple family games $3 each nothing big just to laugh and have fun. There's a few people if we play four games or so $12 max loss will be like I'm done you guys are taking all my money, or I'm going broke. But no lie they're serious! I'm like does it really matter if you hang out with family and lose $20 maybe three times a year, you guys go to the casino monthly and blow 1k+ but your worried about losing $12 here, am I in La La land!!! Just a quick story on how sometimes people are cheap in weird ways but blow big money in others and don't think twice about it! Nico's dealer cheap ha ha
What’s cheap on tipping. I’m one of the best tippers but dealers make silly money so usually a game is fine w one or two dudes who don’t tip heavily.
What does everyone feel at a home game with a dealer is respectable tipping? You win $20 pot tips is....What about $140 pot.... or a $360 pot?? what is a reasonable tip to not make the dealer over paid all night long like doublebooyyah said (which I agree, some games they make a killing aka too much) but what's respectable tipping? percentage? set amount?
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I am probably a bad benchmark, but here's my take:
It's a home game. The dealer isn't going off shift anytime soon, so I don't feel the need to dip a couple bucks each pot essentially taking money off the table. It's probably the same dealer(s) every game, so there is a camaraderie being built amongst regulars. Finally, the games are going to be about the same length each session.
If my dealer needed to get paid, I'd prefer (in order from best to worst)...
- Charge a seat fee to everybody. First buy-in is $X. This gets the dealer a fairly regular salary, and "Nico" can't skimp out on his share.
- Charge a rake on players that cash out "up". You would need to run some numbers to make this work, but you know your game. Figure out how much the dealer should be paid, and simply charge X% on each player with a profit at the end of the night. This isn't too unlike tipping when pulling a pot, but nobody gets to cheap out.
- Allow players to tip at cash-out. Losers can tip if they enjoyed the night, winners can skip if they are cheap, but it becomes obvious when big stacks try to stiff the dealer.
Too many variables to try and type it out tbh lol
8 players, 4 hours dealing for them set fee $10 each equals $80 for dealer or $20 per hour that fair or cheap? if you played lets say mix games for $100 buy in, obviously top offs also by a few
$20/hour is too low for a dedicated dealer working a home game during shitty hours. 7pm-4am. It’s a $40/hour job imho if you are not getting any breaks assuming average buy in is north of $300 per person.
Sparkynutz
Flush
Or tell everyone there's a seat charge instead of tipping to cover dealer. Problem solved.
Unfortunately it’s moved a bit past this. He’s been nudged before about the tipping, and he’s seen others throw in for him when he rakes a huge pot and gives nothing or just $2 (I’m talking $1000-$2,500 pots here).
I definitely don’t want to enforce tipping, but it is grating on other players who are basically carrying the cost of keeping a dealer. He knows exactly what he’s doing.
My guy is a super-pro — gets a ton of hands in per hour, doesn’t screw up pots, virtually never makes even a small mistake. And his breaks total at most maybe 20 minutes over the course of a game which lasts 6-9 hours. So he’s working hard.
The problem with all three options above is that it means far less goes to the dealer than makes it worth it for him to deal for 6-8 hours.
With #1, players either won’t pay a seat rate which matches what the dealer makes in tips. It’s psychological block. They’ll tip almost twice as much over the course of a night as they’d agree to as a flat fee.
With #2, same problem. I see people balking at the number even if it were less than they’d normally tip per hand... Also the amount of cash in play varies a fair amount per night. Meanwhile since not everyone cashes out at the same time, I can’t adjust it very well for that night.
With #3, again, players are going to tip far less at cash-out than they do over the course of a long game. It’s just human nature.
Nico actually tries to say he’s doing this—sometimes tells the dealer when he fails to tip “I’ll get you at the end.” But then “get you” turns out to be something like $20 when there has been like $12K on the table. If everyone does that it means the dealer will quit.
At a casino, by contrast, dealers are earning a (very modest wage) and benefits *and* getting tipped $1-$2 per hand minimum at 2/5. Yeah, it’s taxed, but they have a certain amount guaranteed and even small tips are bumping up the hourly substantially. So in an unraked game with the dealer getting *only* tips, tipping as if it were a casino (or worse) is pretty crappy.
The funny thing is that when the dealer takes one of his *very* short breaks, everyone starts complaining how much it sucks and how slow and sloppy the game gets. Nico agrees. I feel he’s just happy to chisel the rest of the group as long as he can get away with it. I know he plays in bigger private games (5/10+) where the rake is astronomical so IDGI.
Get this guy out of here. Not good for the vibe, not good for the game, not good for the dealer. Whatta scrub.
Edit: I just processed that this mook isn't tipping well while winning thousands. This guy is taking you for granted and I'm annoyed about other things so now I'm projecting my general annoyance onto this guy. Hmmph.
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mikem_nyc
High Hand
Sounds pretty intentional at this point. I’ve seen players stiff or short change a dealer by saying they’d “get them” in the end then conveniently forget. He’s there to grind, he’s looking for his small edges, and getting away with not tipping is one of them. He’s not going to change at this point, so the question is can you afford to not have him around.
As an aside I generally don’t allow people to play a second game on their phone at my game or to put in headphones - it’s meant to be a fun home game, if you’re grinding it out or not socializing because you’re playing another game on your phone, there’s plenty of underground games you can go grind at elsewhere. My 2c
Side note — one I think I’ve posted about before... We typically play 8-handed.
I look at the dealer as in effect a unique 9th player.
This 9th player is in effect a super-nit who never gives away any money, but seldom wins that much. On a good night, he’s going to make a half-buyin or maybe a little more.
Such a player would be terrible for most games... except that the super-nit 9th player is providing an amazing service to the table: dealing and managing every single hand.
None of my regs would come to any game even if they knew they could never lose, if that also meant they could never win more than a half-buyin. They’re there to double or triple their money. And if they had to deal every hand and pay strict attention to every single action regardless of whether they were in the hand or not? Forgettaboutit.
The benefits of having this special 9th player at the table are many: no one has to deal; there are far fewer errors than when we self-deal; we get probably twice as many hands in as we did before—very beneficial for a strong player like Nico; and everyone can relax and enjoy themselves a lot more because they don't have to deal and move cards and push pots etc. You can shoot the breeze or get up and grab some more pizza or watch the game, while he handles every hand.
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P.S. re.: Venmo: The nearest cash machine is a good 15 minutes away, and only dispenses less than half the minimum buy-in at a time. So yes, I can send them there but they’re going to be gone more than a half-hour, and they’re going to have to withdraw multiple times with an exorbitant fee each time. Everyone in this game used to keep a cash poker bankroll, so this wasn't an issue, but people have gotten lazy with electronic transfers now. One of them — whose bank is literally within walking distance of his apartment—complains that he doesn't want to have to go to the bank.
I look at the dealer as in effect a unique 9th player.
This 9th player is in effect a super-nit who never gives away any money, but seldom wins that much. On a good night, he’s going to make a half-buyin or maybe a little more.
Such a player would be terrible for most games... except that the super-nit 9th player is providing an amazing service to the table: dealing and managing every single hand.
None of my regs would come to any game even if they knew they could never lose, if that also meant they could never win more than a half-buyin. They’re there to double or triple their money. And if they had to deal every hand and pay strict attention to every single action regardless of whether they were in the hand or not? Forgettaboutit.
The benefits of having this special 9th player at the table are many: no one has to deal; there are far fewer errors than when we self-deal; we get probably twice as many hands in as we did before—very beneficial for a strong player like Nico; and everyone can relax and enjoy themselves a lot more because they don't have to deal and move cards and push pots etc. You can shoot the breeze or get up and grab some more pizza or watch the game, while he handles every hand.
---------------
P.S. re.: Venmo: The nearest cash machine is a good 15 minutes away, and only dispenses less than half the minimum buy-in at a time. So yes, I can send them there but they’re going to be gone more than a half-hour, and they’re going to have to withdraw multiple times with an exorbitant fee each time. Everyone in this game used to keep a cash poker bankroll, so this wasn't an issue, but people have gotten lazy with electronic transfers now. One of them — whose bank is literally within walking distance of his apartment—complains that he doesn't want to have to go to the bank.
SetToBean
Pair
Not contributing to the game's continued access to that kind of dealer expertise is ridiculous especially with this player's experience. With the standard being the risk of mistakes increasing from 80 minutes consecutive dealing on, this guy has to know the boon he's getting. Completely unacceptable to be stingy in my view especially when printing.
Harsher approaches are justified.
this is my take on it as well. I was initially thinking the mix of A&B, but the dude is consciously doing this and sounds like you’ve had some level of feedback.
‘Never underestimate the power of a public execution at the flagpole.’
Cut him and let the rest of the regs know why, otherwise you’ll start to build resentment within the rest of the group that play by the rules and he’ll have an overall negative impact to the established game etiquette.
Maybe there’s a redemption arc for him, but the timeout needs to be more than 2 games.
GL.
Rakrul
Flush
I would tell him courteously that he won't be invited again since he won't follow 1), 2) and 3). If he wants to follow those rules then he'd be welcomed back (and he probably will).
From his point of view he obviously doesn't agree with them and as been getting away with not following them. Your warnings (if any) might not have been directly to him so in his world;
and since there hasn't been any repercussions so far, he thought he was cool. Him being kicked out will likely change that - if not, good riddance.
From his point of view he obviously doesn't agree with them and as been getting away with not following them. Your warnings (if any) might not have been directly to him so in his world;
and since there hasn't been any repercussions so far, he thought he was cool. Him being kicked out will likely change that - if not, good riddance.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
There is a way to determine to if one's actions are ethical. Ask what would happen if everybody acted the same way. If that breaks the system, it is unethical.
If everybody decided to ignore the phone rule, it would slow the game and the dealer would earn less. This is somewhat unethical (varied by how long the delay would be). However, if everybody stiffed the dealer, this would be completely unethical. Nobody wants to deal 9 hours for free, so the system would break.
Why keep a player in the game that is, by definition, immoral?
If everybody decided to ignore the phone rule, it would slow the game and the dealer would earn less. This is somewhat unethical (varied by how long the delay would be). However, if everybody stiffed the dealer, this would be completely unethical. Nobody wants to deal 9 hours for free, so the system would break.
Why keep a player in the game that is, by definition, immoral?
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