Tourney Beating a dead donkey: How coloring up works + Breakdown for 20-players with addons and rebuys

Lent53

High Hand
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
73
Reaction score
42
Location
NC
True, I was just focused on the quantity needed for the actual starting stacks. Typically with a base T25 structure, I would suggest 1 extra T1000 per player to compensate of the T25 and T100 chips in the starting stack when doing 8 of each. In a 4 hour tournament, those two color ups are usually necessary.

To the main point of @Lent53 's question, By planning higher chips for your re-entries (just adding chips not players) there are basically 3 parts of a tournament set buy.

1) Starting Stacks

This is fairly obvious, figure out your preferred starting stack and multiply by the players. In this case 8/8/4/7 * 20 of T25/100/500/1000

Total 160/160/80/140, 460 chips, 23 per player.

2) Color Ups

Figure out which color ups will generally be required and get additional large chips to account for their removal. In this case, pretty typically T25 and T100 will be colored up in this sort of tournament so for sure add 1 T1000 chip per player. If you think you will get into coloring up T500 chips 2 T5000 chips per 5 players. (Five starting stacks have T10000 in T500 chips between them.)

So times 20 players, this part requires 20 additional T1000 and 5 additional T5000 chips., 25 more chips, a little more than 1 per player.

3) Re-entry Chips

Figure out your estimated re-entry rate. I think planning 50% is usually sufficient with a decent structure, but I think this part is pretty subjective, and often just rounds the set to a nice number. In this case if we figure 10 re-entries is what we want to accommodate, we need two T5000 chips per player to do that.

10 * 2 = 20 chips.

So this gives a total minimum set of 160/160/80/160/25 of T25/100/500/1000/5000 for a total of 585, add 15* T5000 to make a full barrel to get 600.

If you play to reissue re-entries with full starting stacks, you have to plan 10 * 23 more chips as in part 1, instead of 10*2 more chips in part 2. And again, a re-entry does not add players, it only adds to the tournament chips in play. You would assume the chips you put in the starting stacks are sufficient for the number of players you have, take advantage of that fact to simplify the tournament planning.

Now I understand the nature of @Lent53 's question is actually about switching to a T5K starting stack with the set planned for T10K stack. And I think the answer is I wouldn't change anything other than plan to issue re-entries with T1000 chips instead of T5000 chips, but you still don't need to plan any more low chips than what are necessary for the number of players you can host. With only two T1000 chips per player on the table, introducing T5000 chips may create a scenario where it is tough to break a T5000 chip unless one player happens to have a quarter of the T1000 chips in play. With 7 T1000 chips per player in the in a T10K starting stack, it's much easier to break T5000 chips.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

Bottom line, assume the small chips you put in the initial starting stacks are sufficient, if they aren't change the starting stacks, not the re-entry stacks. Introduce big chips when coloring up. @Chris Manzoni 's video above shows how to bring in a big chip from the bank and who to look for to make change. His advice is a little different than what @BGinGA and I are saying since he is just bringing in one T5000 chip instead of a number of T1000 chips, but the principles are the same, find a player on the table to make change for a big chip and use those chips to color up the T25s to T100s. (And later T100s to T500s.) Do not introduce new T100s (or T500s) to do this, they will just be removed again at the next color up.

Good questions and good luck,

Justin
Thank you Justin!

I guess I have 2 main concerns with doing a 10k starting stack.

1. Will I be able to finish a 20 person tournament with rebuys in roughly 4 hours with 15-minute levels starting at 25-50 blinds (200bb). If not, roughly how long will something with this setup take to complete?
2. Will I have enough chips with my current setup which is 16/160/100/140/50 or do I need to order more

My concerns with the 5k starting stack is:

1. Whether or not I will run into problems as @BGinGA pointed out of starting with only an 8/8/4/2 setup and having issues later on.
2. Are these sufficient starting stacks with only 22 chips.
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,323
Reaction score
3,651
Location
Burnsville, MN
Will I be able to finish a 20 person tournament with rebuys in roughly 4 hours with 15-minute levels starting at 25-50 blinds (200bb). If not, roughly how long will something with this setup take to complete?
2. Will I have enough chips with my current setup which is 16/160/100/140/50 or do I need to order more

This really depends on the detail of your structure.

A common rule of thumb is a tournament would end during the level when the total chips in play represent 20BB. So if you do a 20 person tournament, with a 50% rebuy rate that means T300K in total would be in play. Dividing by 20, that means when the big blind is about 15K give or take a level.

My typical structure for base T25 would be:

25-50, 25-75, 50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300 (remove T25) (assuming 15m levels and a 10m break, 1h40m elapsed)
200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 800-1600 (remove T100) (assuming 15m levels and a 10m break, 3h05m elapsed.)
1000-2000, 1500-3000 (optional quick break to remove T500), 2000-4000, 3000-6000, 4000-8000, 6000-12000, 8000-16000 (probable EOT about 4h35m-4h50m elapsed during 8000-16000)

So we would need to play 18 levels to get there plus two 10m breaks for a total of 4h50m. We would need to cut 3 levels to get close to 4h again. If you cut the starting stack to T5000 using the same structure, you would get to the 20BB point about 2 levels sooner getting you down to 4h05-4h20. (Or alternatively, stay at T10000 and start at 50-100 to do a 100BB start, still saves two levels.) You could probably accept a bigger level jump before the T100 color up by skipping 800-1600, to get under 4h00 as well.

So yes 200BB is optimistic, 100BB is doable, either by cutting the starting stack to T5K or by starting at 50-100.

That said, unless your players are fast, you are going to have levels where the deal doesn't make it around once. I would prefer 18 minute levels and smaller starting stacks to fit the time allotted. (Or just accept an event this big really should be 5 hours, not 4.)

But this illustrates the 3 "dials" for controlling tournament length.
1) Starting Stack Size (bigger starting stacks, longer tournament)
2) Level Length (longer levels, longer tournament)
3) Rate of level increases (smaller jumps, longer tournament)

Personally if I find I have cut level length below 18m to fit timing, I would then adjust the starting stack. I don't like adjusting the rate of increases because tournaments where the big blind doubles really introduces a sudden change in everyone's "stack depth" Someone with 20BB at 1000-2000 suddenly has only 10BB if the next level is 2000-4000, instead of 16BB if the next level is 1500-3000.


Whether or not I will run into problems as @BGinGA pointed out of starting with only an 8/8/4/2 setup and having issues later on.
2. Are these sufficient starting stacks with only 22 chips.

I think you would avoid most of the issues by planning reentries using T1000 instead of T5000 chips. I do believe 8/8/4/x is the minimum playable Base T25 stack, but 12/12/5/x would be more chips in starting stacks. But either way, whatever you consider sufficient to start, you shouldn't need to introduce more small chips for re-entries. If you feel the need to do that, you should just do more small chips in the starting stacks in the first place. As an exercise, replan your set for 20 *12/12/5/6 starting stacks and see what you get.
 
Last edited:

Lent53

High Hand
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
73
Reaction score
42
Location
NC
This really depends on the detail of your structure.

A common rule of thumb is a tournament would end during the level when the total chips in play represent 20BB. So if you do a 20 person tournament, with a 50% rebuy rate that means T300K in total would be in play. Dividing by 20, that means when the big blind is about 15K give or take a level.

My typical structure for base T25 would be:

25-50, 25-75, 50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300 (remove T25) (assuming 15m levels and a 10m break, 1h40m elapsed)
200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 800-1600 (remove T100) (assuming 15m levels and a 10m break, 3h05m elapsed.)
1000-2000, 1500-3000 (optional quick break to remove T500), 2000-4000, 3000-6000, 4000-8000, 6000-12000, 8000-16000 (probable EOT about 4h35m-4h50m elapsed during 8000-16000)

So we would need to play 18 levels to get there plus two 10m breaks for a total of 4h50m. We would need to cut 3 levels to get close to 4h again. If you cut the starting stack to T5000 using the same structure, you would get to the 20BB point about 2 levels sooner getting you down to 4h05-4h20. (Or alternatively, stay at T10000 and start at 50-100 to do a 100BB start, still saves two levels.) You could probably accept a bigger level jump before the T100 color up by skipping 800-1600, to get under 4h00 as well.

So yes 200BB is optimistic, 100BB is doable, either by cutting the starting stack to T5K or by starting at 50-100.

That said, unless your players are fast, you are going to have levels where the deal doesn't make it around once. I would prefer 18 minute levels and smaller starting stacks to fit the time allotted. (Or just accept an event this big really should be 5 hours, not 4.)

But this illustrates the 3 "dials" for controlling tournament length.
1) Starting Stack Size (bigger starting stacks, longer tournament)
2) Level Length (longer levels, longer tournament)
3) Rate of level increases (smaller jumps, longer tournament)

Personally if I find I have cut level length below 18m to fit timing, I would then adjust the starting stack. I don't like adjusting the rate of increases because tournaments where the big blind doubles really introduces a sudden change in everyone's "stack depth" Someone with 20BB at 1000-2000 suddenly has only 10BB if the next level is 2000-4000, instead of 16BB if the next level is 1500-3000.




I think you would avoid most of the issues by planning reentries using T1000 instead of T5000 chips. I do believe 8/8/4/x is the minimum playable Base T25 stack, but 12/12/5/x would be more chips in starting stacks. But either way, whatever you consider sufficient to start, you shouldn't need to introduce more small chips for re-entries. If you feel the need to do that, you should just do more small chips in the starting stacks in the first place. As an exercise, replan your set for 20 *12/12/5/6 starting stacks and see what you get.
Thank you for all your expertise! I can really tell you have a lot of experience and I really do appreciate it.

From what you are saying I guess I should just do the 10k starting stack and start at 50-100 since I have sufficient chips to do so. If I did 5k starting at 25-50 it’s basically the same thing.

So with my current setup of 160/160/100/140/50 I could handle the 10k starting stacks and rebuys you think? Should I use more of the T1000 or T5000 for the rebuys and up until what level would be recommended to allow them?

also, would the sale structure you sent above apply with color ups as well?

Thanks again!
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,137
Reaction score
38,199
Location
Atlanta
My calculations indicate that a 20-player T5000 stack event with re-buys will run about 4 hours plus breaks if using 25/50 opening blinds (with a standard 41% average increase rate) and 15-minute blind levels.

Or you can use a slightly more aggressive blind structure (62% avg increase vs 41%, ranging from 50%-67%) with 20 minute blind levels to get the end-time closer to your objective (3.5 hours plus breaks):

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
remove T25 chips, end re-buys
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000 ** EOT
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000

The event should end no later than L11 with re-buys. You can also eliminate L1 and use T10000 starting stacks to maintain 100BB to start but eliminate the 100% jump at L2 (dropping the average increase to 59%).

Personally, I think the longer 20-minute levels with slightly larger blind increases plays better.
 

Lent53

High Hand
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
73
Reaction score
42
Location
NC
My calculations indicate that a 20-player T5000 stack event with re-buys will run about 4 hours plus breaks if using 25/50 opening blinds (with a standard 41% average increase rate) and 15-minute blind levels.

Or you can use a slightly more aggressive blind structure (62% avg increase vs 41%, ranging from 50%-67%) with 20 minute blind levels to get the end-time closer to your objective (3.5 hours plus breaks):

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
remove T25 chips, end re-buys
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000 ** EOT
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000

The event should end no later than L11 with re-buys. You can also eliminate L1 and use T10000 starting stacks to maintain 100BB to start but eliminate the 100% jump at L2 (dropping the average increase to 59%).

Personally, I think the longer 20-minute levels with slightly larger blind increases plays better.
This is great thank you. So starting with 10k stacks and 20 minute levels at 50-100 blinds the above structure will last roughly 4 hours. What rebuy structure would I use when choosing the denominations to pre set rebuy stacks?
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,137
Reaction score
38,199
Location
Atlanta
This is great thank you. So starting with 10k stacks and 20 minute levels at 50-100 blinds the above structure will last roughly 4 hours. What rebuy structure would I use when choosing the denominations to pre set rebuy stacks?
I'd go with 1x5K and 5x1K if you have the chips to support it.
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,323
Reaction score
3,651
Location
Burnsville, MN
Thank you. Would I still end rebuys after level 3 with 10k starting stacks and 20 minute levels?

That's completely up to you, I like to end rebuys at the first break myself. Strategically, no one would really want to re enter when the starting stack is shorter than 40BB anyway.
 

Lent53

High Hand
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
73
Reaction score
42
Location
NC
My calculations indicate that a 20-player T5000 stack event with re-buys will run about 4 hours plus breaks if using 25/50 opening blinds (with a standard 41% average increase rate) and 15-minute blind levels.

Or you can use a slightly more aggressive blind structure (62% avg increase vs 41%, ranging from 50%-67%) with 20 minute blind levels to get the end-time closer to your objective (3.5 hours plus breaks):

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
remove T25 chips, end re-buys
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000 ** EOT
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000

The event should end no later than L11 with re-buys. You can also eliminate L1 and use T10000 starting stacks to maintain 100BB to start but eliminate the 100% jump at L2 (dropping the average increase to 59%).

Personally, I think the longer 20-minute levels with slightly larger blind increases plays better.
If I did this structure with 10k starting stacks starting stack it would last roughly 4 hrs plus breaks or 3.5 plus breaks assuming 20 minute levels
 

Lent53

High Hand
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
73
Reaction score
42
Location
NC
That's completely up to you, I like to end rebuys at the first break myself. Strategically, no one would really want to re enter when the starting stack is shorter than 40BB anyway.
Thank you
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,137
Reaction score
38,199
Location
Atlanta
If I did this structure with 10k starting stacks starting stack it would last roughly 4 hrs plus breaks or 3.5 plus breaks assuming 20 minute levels
Starting at L2 50/100 with 10k and 20-min levels should run no longer than 3.5 hours plus two 10 minute breaks.
 
Top Bottom