Tourney A little help

Wheeler Assembly

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I'm ordinarily a cash game player but wanting to host a tournament with 8 players this weekend. i have a set of chips that I bought for tournaments that I've never used.

The breakdown of this set is as follows:
120 - $25
120 - $100
60 - $500
80 - $1000
40 - $5000

Could you recommend starting stack sizes for me and a blind structure please?

I've got A LOT to learn...
 

Wheeler Assembly

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3-4 hour tournament would probably be ideal for this first tournament.

Anything else you would recommend?

Thanks in advance...
 

Josh Kifer

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I'm open to the idea. Recommend?
Lets start walking before running.

I'd start

50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1400
1000/2000
1200/2400
1400/2800

Just keep stepping it like that. 20 min blinds. 10k starting stack.

12/12/5/6 works.

Should be over around 3.5-4.5 hours. We do a ten min break ever 2 blinds, but that's up to you.
 

Wheeler Assembly

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Lets start walking before running.

I'd start

50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1400
1000/2000
1200/2400
1400/2800

Just keep stepping it like that. 20 min blinds. 10k starting stack.

12/12/5/6 works.

Should be over around 3.5-4.5 hours. We do a ten min break ever 2 blinds, but that's up to you.
Thank you a ton...
 

Beakertwang

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Starting stacks of 12/12/5/6 is standard for 10k. You could also do 8/8/4/7 for 15, except a couple players will get 8/8/4/2/2.

Tons of threads have covered the structure. Search for those. But here are the basics:
  • Try to keep blind increases fairly smooth. Try to avoid blind increases of 100%.
  • Tourney will typically end when there are 20BB in play. Figure out your end time from that, and adjust accordingly.
  • Changing total time of tournament can be done by changing level duration, more/less aggressive blind increases, or bigger/smaller starting stacks.
  • Don’t forget to figure in time for breaks/color ups.
 

Mr Winberg

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My goto structure is

25 50
50 100
75 150
100 200
150 300
(Break. Remove T25s)
200 400
300 600
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
(Break. Remove T100)
1000 2000
1500 3000
(Remove T500)
2000 4000
3000 6000
4000 8000
Etc...

I agree with
12 x $25
12 x $100
5 x $500
6 x $1000

Because of
Tourney will typically end when there are 20BB in play.
it should end at or before level 2000/4000 (because 80k/20=4k)
That's level 13, so with 16 minute levels it should take no more than 13×16~3.5 hours.

If you, for example, allow exactly one rebuy OR add-on then you will likely have twice the chips in play, and it should end no later than 4k/8k, i.e. about half an hour longer.

For unlimited rebuys it becomes tougher to predict. I recommend some sort of rebuy scheme since it will be boring if someone is eliminated early.
 

Wheeler Assembly

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My goto structure is

25 50
50 100
75 150
100 200
150 300
(Break. Remove T25s)
200 400
300 600
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
(Break. Remove T100)
1000 2000
1500 3000
(Remove T500)
2000 4000
3000 6000
4000 8000
Etc...

I agree with


Because of

it should end at or before level 2000/4000 (because 80k/20=4k)
That's level 13, so with 16 minute levels it should take no more than 13×16~3.5 hours.

If you, for example, allow exactly one rebuy OR add-on then you will likely have twice the chips in play, and it should end no later than 4k/8k, i.e. about half an hour longer.

For unlimited rebuys it becomes tougher to predict. I recommend some sort of rebuy scheme since it will be boring if someone is eliminated early.

would you limit when the rebuy can occur?
 

Beakertwang

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would you limit when the rebuy can occur?
I try to end rebuys when new stack will be 50bb. Otherwise, you’ll rebuy and just be looking for a spot to jam. With T10k, I’d end it at 100/200. Maybe offer a 5k add-on at the end of the rebuy period.
 

Mr Winberg

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would you limit when the rebuy can occur?
Yes, definitely. In general I think it should end when the starting stack is around 25-35 big blinds. Any later and 1) there will be a bunch of all-in-or-fold poker and 2) even with the add-ons the next level will be short stacked. Any earlier and the rebuy period will be short and likely with very few (if any) rebuys.

I would also try to end it at a break because you need to administrate the add-ons. In this case I would choose the 150/300 level as the last level. A starting stack has 33 big blinds and can still play poker, the add-ons are administrated during the break, and after the break a starting stack with an add-on has 50 big blinds and can play poker for a few levels before the shoving starts.
 

Mr Winberg

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... but it's all about preference :)
I try to end rebuys when new stack will be 50bb. Otherwise, you’ll rebuy and just be looking for a spot to jam. With T10k, I’d end it at 100/200. Maybe offer a 5k add-on at the end of the rebuy period.
 
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Mr Winberg

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Another thing:

One version is to only allow one or several rebuys but no add-ons. From a "return of investment" perspective that works as well as any other method, but homegames are not only about money, if at all. It's about having fun and bragging rights.

Here's what I mean in a scenario where rebuys are allowed but not add-ons:

Player A has 10000 in chips and player B 10050, and player C has 10025. It's the last hand of the rebuy period. They go all in and C wins.

Player A is rewarded for having less chips and gets to make a rebuy to start with 10k after the break. Player B had the most chips and is punished for it, as he gets to start with 100 in chips (25 rounded to 100 after the color-up). B is all but out, his night is over, while A gets to have fun and has a real shot at winning it.

This scenario was extreme, but a more common one is two shortstacks going all in, and the winner still starts the break with a short stack while the loser starts with a full starting stack. Sure, the loser needs to pay another entry fee, but since the entry fee usually doesn't matter in low stake home games, this isn't fair from the "playability perspective".

Add-ons solve this, so when allowing rebuys I always have add-ons the same size as the starting stack.

A bad thing with addons is that they dilute advantages. If I have 20k vs your 10k, after the add-ons it will be 30k vs 20k, i.e. my lead has shrunk from ×2 to ×1.5. If this is a problem, you can skip add-ons but at any point during the rebuy-period (and first break) allow players to surrender their stack and rebuy. Player B above would then still start with 10k after the break. This may also remove the all-in madness from crippled players during the rebuy period, depending on how cheap the crippled player is.

If you don't want it to seam like you are trying to extract more money from the players you can have the entry fee include a rebuy, which automatically turns into an addon at the break if not used. The advantages are that the buy-in is predictable (i.e. more friendly), you know the exact chip count and can plan accordingly, and it plays like a freezout since people probably won't be playing as recklessly as in rebuy-tournaments.
 

BGinGA

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Agree -- utilizing the surrender re-buy option helps to rectify the inequity issue without needing to implement add-ons (which favor deeper pockets and somewhat negate the value of the early play levels).
 

Steve Birrer

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I hate add ons and won't play tournaments that have them. For one simple reason. A tournament is advertised as say a $100 tournament with rebuys for say the first two hours and add on at the end of the rebuy period.

This is not a $100 tournament. Its a $200 tournament in most cases at a minimum Of course you dont have to rebuy so if you bust out late in the first two hours then you can consider calling it a night because the reality is you not only have to rebuy but also add on. So you are now in for $300 and still probably way behind the bigger chip stacks.

For those that make it to the end of the rebuy period its just about mandatory to do the add on. I suppose if you have a massive chip lead it may not be warranted, but in general its bad math to not add on.
 

trigs

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I hate add ons and won't play tournaments that have them. For one simple reason. A tournament is advertised as say a $100 tournament with rebuys for say the first two hours and add on at the end of the rebuy period.

This is not a $100 tournament. Its a $200 tournament in most cases at a minimum Of course you dont have to rebuy so if you bust out late in the first two hours then you can consider calling it a night because the reality is you not only have to rebuy but also add on. So you are now in for $300 and still probably way behind the bigger chip stacks.

For those that make it to the end of the rebuy period its just about mandatory to do the add on. I suppose if you have a massive chip lead it may not be warranted, but in general its bad math to not add on.
I just go in knowing that I'll probably rebuy at least once and add-on for sure. It's not like the add-on was a secret. Why would you have to completely avoid tournaments with add-ons? Do you feel like the "advertising it's a $100 tournament when it's not" is an issue?
 

Steve Birrer

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I just go in knowing that I'll probably rebuy at least once and add-on for sure. It's not like the add-on was a secret. Why would you have to completely avoid tournaments with add-ons? Do you feel like the "advertising it's a $100 tournament when it's not" is an issue?
To me add ons are just like straddles in a cash game. They are arbitrary methods to increase the stakes. If you want to play higher stakes then fine play higher stakes. But specifically they diminish the value of early in the tournament. Here's and example.

Let's say you are playing a $100 buyin with 10K starting stacks and rebuys for the first two hours and an add on at the end of the rebuy period:

Fred is playing well and has built his chip stack up to 40K (4X the starting stack).
Harry is also playing well and is second in chips with 20K (2X) starting stack.
At the end of the rebuy period Fred has 2X the stack of Harry.
They both add on so now Fred has 50K and Harry has 30K in chips. Fred now only has 1.67x the stack of Harry. Fred's chip lead has dropped 33% without a single hand being played. And if Fred didn't do the add on he has lost 50% of his chip lead.
 

trigs

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To me add ons are just like straddles in a cash game. They are arbitrary methods to increase the stakes. If you want to play higher stakes then fine play higher stakes. But specifically they diminish the value of early in the tournament. Here's and example.

Let's say you are playing a $100 buyin with 10K starting stacks and rebuys for the first two hours and an add on at the end of the rebuy period:

Fred is playing well and has built his chip stack up to 40K (4X the starting stack).
Harry is also playing well and is second in chips with 20K (2X) starting stack.
At the end of the rebuy period Fred has 2X the stack of Harry.
They both add on so now Fred has 50K and Harry has 30K in chips. Fred now only has 1.67x the stack of Harry. Fred's chip lead has dropped 33% without a single hand being played. And if Fred didn't do the add on he has lost 50% of his chip lead.
I think we should agree to disagree. Add-ons are nothing like straddles in cash games. Straddles do increase the stakes (but like I always say, I'm fine with people increasing the stakes when they are choosing to do it blind. Put all the blind money in that you want. Shove a full stack blind in every time if you want. I won't complain.)

Add-ons increase the play in tournaments - i.e. more chips - not the stakes. They don't increase the stakes because you know going in that they are a guaranteed part of the tournament buy-in. That is, when I play a tourney that is $100 buy-in with $100 optional rebuy, I know it's an actual $200 tournament because everyone will and probably should be adding on.
 

Steve Birrer

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I think we should agree to disagree. Add-ons are nothing like straddles in cash games. Straddles do increase the stakes (but like I always say, I'm fine with people increasing the stakes when they are choosing to do it blind. Put all the blind money in that you want. Shove a full stack blind in every time if you want. I won't complain.)

Add-ons increase the play in tournaments - i.e. more chips - not the stakes. They don't increase the stakes because you know going in that they are a guaranteed part of the tournament buy-in. That is, when I play a tourney that is $100 buy-in with $100 optional rebuy, I know it's an actual $200 tournament because everyone will and probably should be adding on.

Yes you are correct straddles are a different kind of animal. But that doesn't change my original premise. What is the point of an add on? Just say its a $200 tournament upfront and be done with it. I guess it does make it cheaper for some guys who will chose not to rebuy if they bust out early. But for the vast majority of players it s a $200 tourney. And that's ok. But you didn't address at all my point about how it diminishes the early play. Stupid that a guys chip lead can get cut without playing a hand.
 

trigs

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Yes you are correct straddles are a different kind of animal. But that doesn't change my original premise. What is the point of an add on? Just say its a $200 tournament upfront and be done with it. I guess it does make it cheaper for some guys who will chose not to rebuy if they bust out early. But for the vast majority of players it s a $200 tourney. And that's ok. But you didn't address at all my point about how it diminishes the early play. Stupid that a guys chip lead can get cut without playing a hand.
Again, we'll agree to disagree. The host did say it's a $200 tournament by including an add-on. It's not a secret. It doesn't cut the chip leader's lead at all because everyone knows the add-on is coming. They should be factoring that in when they are playing. Again, it's not a secret. I understand your point completely, I just disagree with it.
 

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Again, we'll agree to disagree. The host did say it's a $200 tournament by including an add-on. It's not a secret. It doesn't cut the chip leader's lead at all because everyone knows the add-on is coming. They should be factoring that in when they are playing. Again, it's not a secret. I understand your point completely, I just disagree with it.
The problem with "knowing they are coming' is that you can not use them when you don't have them. I would prefer to just have twice the starting stack for twice the money to start with rather than to play for several hours and then have the dynamics changed.
 

trigs

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The problem with "knowing they are coming' is that you can not use them when you don't have them. I would prefer to just have twice the starting stack for twice the money to start with rather than to play for several hours and then have the dynamics changed.
....agree to disagree....I don't see how it changes the dynamics but I understand how you think it does.
 

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Agree -- utilizing the surrender re-buy option helps to rectify the inequity issue without needing to implement add-ons (which favor deeper pockets and somewhat negate the value of the early play levels).

How does this surrender works ?

The players just "gives" his remaining chips to the tournament director, gets a new starting stack and pays a full buyin ?

Is there a threshold for surrending ? For instance, do you need to be below a certain portion of the starting stack to surrender ?
 

BGinGA

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How does this surrender works ?

The players just "gives" his remaining chips to the tournament director, gets a new starting stack and pays a full buyin ?

Is there a threshold for surrending ? For instance, do you need to be below a certain portion of the starting stack to surrender ?
Correct. The player surrenders his current stack (no size restrictions), and pays full price for a new one.

It's up to the player to determine what size stack is needed to make the surrender make sense under the current circumstances.
 

Kid_Eastwood

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Correct. The player surrenders his current stack (no size restrictions), and pays full price for a new one.

It's up to the player to determine what size stack is needed to make the surrender make sense under the current circumstances.

Thanks, it indeed a good way to avoid addons.
The only thing is that the total amount of chips in play can be odd but that's a minor thing compared to the benefits of this concept.
I'll definitely adopt it.
I guess most surrenders occur at the very end of the rebuy period, correct ? It's in the interest of the players to wait until the last moment to take the decision.
 

BGinGA

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Re: add-ons -- the problem really isn't with add-ons per se; the issues cited above mostly only come into play when the add-on is the same size as the starting stack.

An optional add-on equaling just 20% to 50% of the starting stack size works much better from an equity perspective, imo -- and opens up new avenues of tournament strategy as well.

Players are now faced with equity calculations, needed to detetmine if adding onto their existing stack makes sense, in light of other's stack sizes and add-on decisions. It's no longer just a question of 'keeping up with the Jones' and deep pockets; it becomes an equity math problem -- and adds another skill level to the event.

Non-100% add-ons serve three purposes -- they allow very short stacks to briefly postpone their inevitable all-in (at a financial cost), they allow the larger big stacks to improve their financial return resulting from their early play, and it adds a new strategy layer.
 

BGinGA

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I guess most surrenders occur at the very end of the rebuy period, correct ? It's in the interest of the players to wait until the last moment to take the decision.
No, not necessarily.

If my stack gets crippled (down to 10% or less), I may choose to surrender immediately. Yes, I may double-up (to a 20% stack) by shoving with a premium hand, or just surrender (getting a new 100% stack) and using that same premium hand to turn it into something much larger instead.

At some point -- up to each player to decide -- the short stack size becomes better off abandoned, due to the missed opportunity chips it represents.
 

GimmieUChips

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Lets start walking before running.

I'd start

50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1400
1000/2000
1200/2400
1400/2800

Just keep stepping it like that. 20 min blinds. 10k starting stack.

12/12/5/6 works.

Should be over around 3.5-4.5 hours. We do a ten min break ever 2 blinds, but that's up to you.
I had an every other week tourney on Sunday nights at 6:30. We used the same blinds but with 18 minutes - 10 min break after 4 levels. Was over by 10:00 p.m. at the latest.
 
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