Tourney 21 player 3TT Poker leauge needs help. any suggestions? (1 Viewer)

[ArkDegen]

My league needs help it is fun and a good group of guys but it needs some help.

Current League set-up

-21 players - 3TT - 9 - tournaments
-TOP 3 Point Leaders at the end of the league get paid entrance into VEGAS WSOP event - -Valued @ $1500 for 1st - $1000 for 2nd & 3rd.
-Every player in the league gets a cut of WSOP winnings

Buy-in $50
Food $5
Final Purse $5
Host Fee $5 goes to host

High Hand $5 optional

Starting Stack -2500
t25 x 4
t50 x 4
t100 x 7
t500 x 1
t1000 x 1

t500 bonus if you show up before 7pm- cards fly 7:30pm

OPTIONAL add-on at the BREAK 5000 in chips for $40
UNLIMITED $40 re-buys before BREAK/EAT
5min BREAK when down to 2T - 18 players - Draw for seats
5min BREAK for FINAL TABLE - 9 players - Draw for seats
NO ANTE until FINAL TABLE

Blind Structure

1. 25 / 50 30m
2. 50 /100 30m
3. 100 / 200 30m

BREAK/EAT 30min
REMOVE t25 - t50 into t100

-END REBUYS - Points awarded

1. 100 / 200 30m
2. 200 / 400 30m
3. 300 / 600 30m
4. 400 / 800 (100) 20m
5. 500 / 1000 (100) 20m
6. 700 / 1400 (200) 20m
7. 800 / 1600 (200
8. 1000 / 2000 (200) 20m
9. 1500 / 3000 (500) 20m
10. 2000 / 4000 (500) 20m
11. 3000 / 6000 (500) 20m
12. 4000 / 8000 (1000) 20m
13. 6000 / 12000 (1000) 20m
14. 8000 / 16000 (2000) 20m -CAP-FINISH 2-230AM

TOP 5 PAYOUT
1st 40%
2nd 25%
3rd 15%
4th 10%
5th 5%

Point Awarded
1st 600
2nd 400
3rd 300
5th 100
4th 200
6-9th 50
10-14 20
15-21 15

Problems

1. The first hour and half feels pointless and slow. Even if you triple up to 7500 then add on 5000 at the break to12500 someone who just did the add on is at 7500.
2. Even though there is an incentive to show up early for the extra 500 many players show up late knowing that the 1st half is pointless because you can’t get knocked out until after the 1st break and you get those 5000 add on chips. The person who won last week came at the break.
3. How points are awarded is antiquated. Too much is awarded to the winner and once you know you can’t or get into the top 3 at the end of the league players stop showing up and we have to call in subs to fill their spot.
4. Only starting with 50 BB feels low. And too much time taken at low Levels.
5. Ante doesn’t start till the final table. Players thought it took up too much time to remind players to put ante in. feel the ante incentives players to get into more pots having blind but you really don’t have enough chips mid game cause of the low starting stack.
6. No clock/timer for players' decisions. Players can call time on the person but sometimes ends up being 5 minutes per decision. Made it to the final table and we did 5 hands in 30min. Didn’t even make an orbit. If you are short stack you end up getting blinded out fast.
7. Largest chip size is t1000 which is not helping in later stages when people are going all in. the clock doesn't stop when players are trying to calculate how much their all in was. players have giant stacks of t100s, and t1000 with a few t500 and it makes the play slow.
8. No break after the 1st BREAK/EAT. Only very quick to draw seats when we lose a table.
9. The tournament is always at my house and people don’t end up leaving till 3am. I don’t mind it being a long tournament but the beginning is WAY too slow and the middle is WAY too fast and the final 4 people end up taking 2-3 hours to finish.

Fixes or Suggestion

1. Change the starting stack size. 50bb feels low. Maybe 100BB
2. Change the Level time in the beginning to be faster 20min
3. Have another break when down to 1 Table and add another chip denominationt5000 or t10000 since people take a long time count all their t100 and t1000 chips
4. Have a hand timer so people don’t take forever
5. The ADD-ON feels too big. You are adding 2x you initial buy in an hour half into tournament. Makes everything you do before then pointless unless you 4x your stack which isn’t likely.
6. Change the point system, have a championship table or at least have a double points tournament at the half and the end.
7. The 500 in chips if you show up on time is nice but again pointless since the large add on. Suggestion get a point if you show up and maybe 2 points if early…those small points could end up being a tie breaker.

Open to any suggestions to help this league not feel stale and unfair

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Welcome! Woah, yeah an add-on which is twice the number of chips as a starting stack is a huge strategy concern.

1. You're right, addon is huge and starting stack is small.
2. They're right. Its a better strategy to come late to your tournament as it sits right now, they have a better chance of winning money and points.
3. This is the nature of the beast when it comes to season-long incentives. If tournaments don't stand on their own as fun social events it will be challenging to pay for a Vegas WSOP tournament.
4. Agreed, starting stack small. Cut levels from 30 minutes to 20 minutes. Many of our tournaments are less than 20 minutes. This will make the beginning feel less. Increase stack but reduce level duration.
5. Start ante right away, this gets people used to it and incentivizes action.
6. Regular 5 minute tanks are way too long. Certain older games are slower but that's nuts. Are people distracted? This might be just a cultural thing.
7. Get more chips, you came to the right place.
8. Cut level times and add a break.
9. Reduce blind levels. 30 minutes is long for a home game tournament.

Alright, padre! You've got your work cut out for you. As an outsider, reading about your game, it does sound frustrating. Longer levels, rebuys, and no antes favor the more skilled players. It gives them time and space to make moves and take advantage of worse players, and ensures that the worse players win less. You're clearly doing something right if you've got 20 people regularly coming to play at your house! But I would reduce the levels, increase the stacks, and ensure the 5 minute tanks are held to a minimum. This helps the recreational players have more fun and limits the 4am days that you have making sure people actually bet in a timely manner.

The add-on is way too big, that's bananas.

 

[Labrat]

Personally, this is what I would do:

1 - I dislike add-ons and would get rid of them altogether. Boost starting stacks to at least 100bb,
2 - Drop all the levels to 20 min
3 - Cut the theatrical tanking garbage. Maybe get time buttons made and have a running shot clock. PITA, but sounds necessary.
4 - Say the hell with the whole thing, play mixed cash games and enjoy life a whole lot more.

 

[BigGrizz]

Big point of concern. You have a host fee and are from California. This would be considered a rake and make your game illegal. Depending on your county, this could be an issue. I know my county sheriff is a prick and would absolutely crack down on that if word got out. You have to drop that. It only $105 per tournament. Just eat it. $105 or $945/year isn't worth catching an illegal gambling charge.

Also, the food fee is on sketchy territory. You'd need to separate that out. $5 gets you food, not paying means no food, but you can't roll that into the tournament entry. You'd again run afoul of CA gaming law.

Now... what you can do is have an option to contribute to food for bonus chips, but it has to be optional. Then you are in a grey area that is likely to not be enforced.

 

[ArkDegen]

Welcome! Woah, yeah an add-on which is twice the number of chips as a starting stack is a huge strategy concern.

1. You're right, addon is huge and starting stack is small.
2. They're right. Its a better strategy to come late to your tournament as it sits right now, they have a better chance of winning money and points.
3. This is the nature of the beast when it comes to season-long incentives. If tournaments don't stand on their own as fun social events it will be challenging to pay for a Vegas WSOP tournament.
4. Agreed, starting stack small. Cut levels from 30 minutes to 20 minutes. Many of our tournaments are less than 20 minutes. This will make the beginning feel less. Increase stack but reduce level duration.
5. Start ante right away, this gets people used to it and incentivizes action.
6. Regular 5 minute tanks are way too long. Certain older games are slower but that's nuts. Are people distracted? This might be just a cultural thing.
7. Get more chips, you came to the right place.
8. Cut level times and add a break.
9. Reduce blind levels. 30 minutes is long for a home game tournament.

Alright, padre! You've got your work cut out for you. As an outsider, reading about your game, it does sound frustrating. Longer levels, rebuys, and no antes favor the more skilled players. It gives them time and space to make moves and take advantage of worse players, and ensures that the worse players win less. You're clearly doing something right if you've got 20 people regularly coming to play at your house! But I would reduce the levels, increase the stacks, and ensure the 5 minute tanks are held to a minimum. This helps the recreational players have more fun and limits the 4am days that you have making sure people actually bet in a timely manner.

The add-on is way too big, that's bananas.

thanks for reply. Yea it is a good group why i want to improve it. At least i know im on the right track. Any I reccomndation for better point system?

 

[Gunnar]

thanks for reply. Yea it is a good group why i want to improve it. At least i know im on the right track. Any I reccomndation for better point system?

Points are a hard thing to get perfect I have used Attendance points and Bonus points for registering early with great results.

Ofcourse the win should award the highest points but I like a little bit flatter curve for the final table, I think getting to the final table is achievement and should be rewarded. Consistency is key in poker

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

thanks for reply. Yea it is a good group why i want to improve it. At least i know im on the right track. Any I reccomndation for better point system?

Agreed with @Gunnar, but I don't have specifics. I think the other points we've made will help more recreational players do better and get more points but the incentives for your tournament favor sending your strongest fighter over to Vegas. What if it was divided up into smaller seasons with lesser prizes? Gives more reason to keep showing up.

Amy pointers, @FestiveKnight?

 

[FestiveKnight]

I have many thoughts. I just wrapped up the third season of my online league. I'd say compared to many of the experts here I am still a complete amateur but I have given this tons of thought and read a lot here so maybe I can be of a little help.

To start, I'm curious where the idea of the addon for double a starting stack came from? Candidly, this seems nuts. Strategically, I can see this encouraging me to buy in at the last hand before rebuy ends, fold no matter what, pay my extra $40 and now I have 3 buyins worth of chips and haven't had to do a thing and I've only had to pay for 2! I think a small addon as a reward for not using rebuy chip is interesting but every other version of addon can get super messy. I would axe it entirely.

Before getting into your specifics, also a note on planning structure generally so I can address several things at once. I strongly strongly recommend that you take your structure into Excel and spend some time studying the level increases and thinking about how you want the tournament to flow. This thing is all over the place!

The first levels look wonky cause I just copied literally what you had and it looks like you repeat a level after rebuy ends? But regardless, you can see your percent increases are all over the place. I would go look up some posts by @BGinGA and see how the wiser folks among us think about this stuff but this needs addressing and in doing so you can also sort out a bit why the early levels feel too slow.

Another question, are your players crazy nits or constantly rebuying? How are they making it to 3am on 50bb? I assume the vast majority must be paying for the addon and some whales rebuy early and help the sharks build up a comfy fort? I think starting at anything less than 150BB is mickey mouse but you can read around here and see different perspectives.

Generally, what should the goal of early levels be? Early on, there is typically not a lot of pressure on player's stacks from the blinds which affords the opportunity to find safer spots and calmly chip up. They also reward aggressive players who are looking to make a deep run in the tournament who can start to accumulate chips while stacks are bigger and people may be a bit looser. Heading into early to mid levels, the "leaderboard" should start to take on some shape, with some folks at the top who have already made big moves and bought themselves an easier time coasting into the later levels, folks who haven't gotten involved much and are still around starting stack and need to find a spot, and folks who have taken a beat and need to be thinking about ICM implications of rebuying and how to take their stand with their remaining chips. This is all to say, early levels are important for setting the stage for the rest of the tournament and having enough BB to play and a reward for doing so is important. In your structure, there is not a lot of room to breath with so few chips and the fact that anyone can take a piss break, two dozen smoke breaks, and then piss again and then addon at the end of rebuy for 2x starting stack completely breaks down the point of early game play.

FWIW, I run an online game so I can be much more precise with amounts because I am not constrained by chip denominations (but not chippies in play ). But here is the structure for my weekly, which is also a turbo so don't copy this, but you might be interested in studying the increases. I am pretty proud of how the SB and BB kind of alternate so that there is a lot of consistency in increases and in ante as a portion of BB.

Problems

1. The first hour and half feels pointless and slow. Even if you triple up to 7500 then add on 5000 at the break to12500 someone who just did the add on is at 7500.
2. Even though there is an incentive to show up early for the extra 500 many players show up late knowing that the 1st half is pointless because you can’t get knocked out until after the 1st break and you get those 5000 add on chips. The person who won last week came at the break.

These two address by above. Nix the addon.

1. How points are awarded is antiquated. Too much is awarded to the winner and once you know you can’t or get into the top 3 at the end of the league players stop showing up and we have to call in subs to fill their spot.
2. Only starting with 50 BB feels low. And too much time taken at low Levels.
3. Ante doesn’t start till the final table. Players thought it took up too much time to remind players to put ante in. feel the ante incentives players to get into more pots having blind but you really don’t have enough chips mid game cause of the low starting stack.

As I said above, 150BB at least in starting stacks. If players don't rebuy a lot right now, this will just be strictly better. If they do rebuy a lot right now, it will change the nature of your tournaments somewhat because they likely won't have to rebuy as much. Something to consider.

I agree with others, I would have an ante going the whole time. Easier to remember if you do it from the start. I also would consider a BBA which requires only a single player to remember on each hand but the merits of a BBA are very controversial. I would read up on that.

1. No clock/timer for players' decisions. Players can call time on the person but sometimes ends up being 5 minutes per decision. Made it to the final table and we did 5 hands in 30min. Didn’t even make an orbit. If you are short stack you end up getting blinded out fast.

I have no perspective on this. But before moving to a shot clock, I would have a conversation with your players about it. Doesn't even have to be about "ugh guys you play to slow", you can focus on how it warps the integrity of the tournament.

1. Largest chip size is t1000 which is not helping in later stages when people are going all in. the clock doesn't stop when players are trying to calculate how much their all in was. players have giant stacks of t100s, and t1000 with a few t500 and it makes the play slow.
2. No break after the 1st BREAK/EAT. Only very quick to draw seats when we lose a table.
3. The tournament is always at my house and people don’t end up leaving till 3am. I don’t mind it being a long tournament but the beginning is WAY too slow and the middle is WAY too fast and the final 4 people end up taking 2-3 hours to finish.

Fix structure to fix 3rd point here, then adress set breakdown. Many good threads here. a T5k would probably be nice.

Lastly, re points:

This is really hard to get right. The point system reflects a formulaization of all your goals and philosophy around the league and it's very hard to predict how it will play out. I spent a lot of time simming mine and have tweaked it a bit each season.

As a starting point, I would read up what others have said about them here on PCF. I also think spending time going through this site may prove very beneficial:

https://homepokertourney.org/poker-league-points-systems.htm

How points are awarded is antiquated. Too much is awarded to the winner and once you know you can’t or get into the top 3 at the end of the league players stop showing up and we have to call in subs to fill their spot.

This is the nature of things, but there are tons of ways you can mix it up. For my league, the finale is a freeroll where starting stacks are equal to total points earned over the season (actually, from your top 8 scores from 11 total weeklies) with a minimum of 15k (a whopping 300BB, its a slow patient freeroll). This gives high performing players an advantage that rewards them for good performance during the season, but doesn't rule out others from making a hero performance in the finale. FWIW, here is final placement from the recent finale and stack size going in. Local PCF hero @NotRealNameNoSir is that 1st place spot!

For your situation, I could imagine doing a final 8-person tournament with the highest scores from the season and use that to assign final prizes.

So that all being said, figure out your goals and how the points will be used, then back into your formula. Here's my formula, tweaked from what someone here had shared. The goal is to award participation a good amount while still giving a nice splash of points to the folks who perform best.

ROUND((LOG(([Placement Rank])/[# Participants + Rebuys],1.75) + 1.5) x 850,0)

Good luck and thank you for being a tournament host!

 

[Moxie Mike]

I've been running a 3-table league for years. If you like, send me a PM and I'll pass along our rules and formulas that are pretty dialed in by this point.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Scrap the whole thing, it's broken.

Next, find someone who has run a WSOP rewards league for a number of years. One or two may not be enough to work out all the kinks. This is a multi-thousands of dollars endeavor, don't think you can just make shit up and everybody will be happy. Use something that has worked for years and don't reinvent the wheel.

 

[thePokerClub]

A lot of good feedback here already.

1. Get rid of any fees to you immediately. Other responses here are correct, you cannot take anything in CA - it all needs to go back. I have a website for my club and as a CYA, I say this outright in the rules section. It all goes back 100% and that is true.
2. Agree with the add-on issue. Issue is not that you have an add-on it is that it should only be ~50% of what a rebuy/starting stack would get - and for 1/2 the cost.
3. Point structure needs serious work - looks like you may have just thrown together arbitrary point levels. You should rethink how the tiering works, keep it simple, and be consistent.
4. I personally don't like a forced award like a WSOP entry - there are other costs associated with winning an entry. Consider converting this into a Championship game or something of that nature. Let folks decide what they do with their winnings.

Check out SeasonStack in the vendor subforum, we focus on point structures and incentives to enhance games.

Send me a DM when you can after a few days and that option opens up to you. Always willing to help with more info.