Tourney 20 player max help (1 Viewer)

[Mr Winberg]

Any better?

View attachment 307629

Third times the charm?

View attachment 307648

It seems as if you like to have lots of chips on the table. If so, then there's really nothing wrong with these as long as you are aware of some of the drawbacks:

• It costs more.
• The lower denoms will eventually be removed. That's why it makes more sense to have more T100 than T25 than vice versa, whereas the consensus at PCF is to have 8 or 12 of both.
• It could slow down the speed of the game, unless your players know how to manage and count stacks

My starting stacks for ~20 players are 20/20/15 for T10k and 20/20/5/15 for T20k, but I bought those chips well aware of the drawbacks. My love for tall stacks got the better of me. After having educated my players on stack management I don't really think the the speed is suffering. I know I'm an outsider on this, so I don't usually recommend it.

A middle ground could be to have more T1000? For example 12/12/3/12/1. For a freezout T20k tournament with 20 players the T1000 should survive to the end, but with rebuys and add-ons they'll probably be colored up with a few players left.

If 20 players use a rebuy or an addon, that's 800k in play, which means that a few 25k plaques or chips wouldn't be wasted. Just sayin...MOAR chips!

 

[BGinGA]

20 players x T20K stacks (12/12/5/6/2) with re-buys and color-ups:

240 x T25
240 x T100
100 x T500
150 x T1000
70 x T5000
-------------
800 chips

Expanding to also cover 30 players x T25K stacks (8/8/4/7/3) with re-buys and color-ups:

240 x T25
240 x T100
120 x T500
240 x T1000
150 x T5000
10 x T25000
-------------
1000 chips

 

[Klobberer]

This may hurt if you're OCD...
212 $25
360 $100
288 $500
140 $1000

But I keep them in a wooden case, not racks, so out of sight!

 

[PlaidDragon]

700 chips for twenty T10000 starting stacks of 8/8/4/7, allowing for 20 rebuys of 5x T1000 and 1x T5000.

160 x T25
160 x T100
80 x T500
240 x T1000
40 x T5000
20 x T25000

The T25,000's aren't that necessary. 20 more T5000's will suffice if you don't want the bigger denom.

 

[TonZaga]

Hate to revive an oldie but goodie but can I get some help on a 6 hour MAX blind structure (limit 1 rebuy) $20-25k starting stack?

 

[Taghkanic]

I'm going to be looking to host a 20 player tournament twice a year. I'm in need of the normal chip count and player breakdown so I can build a set of chips. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm mainly a cash game player.

Probably unwelcome suggestion: Make it 18 players. Or 24 and make it three tables of 8. Or 21, 7-handed. More action for everyone, less endless folding and people just waiting for premiums.

 

[TonZaga]

Probably unwelcome suggestion: Make it 18 players. Or 24 and make it three tables of 8. Or 21, 7-handed. More action for anyone, less endless folding and people just waiting for premiums.

My chip set will be able to accommodate 30 players max and anything in between.

 

[Mr Winberg]

My chip set will be able to accommodate 30 players max and anything in between.

I think he is referring to the number of players per table, i.e. he deduced that 20 meant 10 per table.

Is so, I agree with him that 10 per table is a sleeping pill. The best decision I ever made as a host was to reduce to 8 players per table! You can still host 20, it just means you'll start out with 7, 7, 6 until you're down to 16 and you'll merge down to 2 tables.

I'll help with the structure tonight (Swedish time) if nobody else has. It's too early here for maff. ;-)

 

[Mr Winberg]

"Limit 1 rebuy", please elaborate. In this scenario:
Player A: 20200
Player B: 20100
Player C: 20000

Last hand of the rebuy period, all are all in against each other. Player B wins. Shall player A be punished for having most chips by having him start the freezout portion of the tourney with just 100 in chips, while C is rewarded for having less chips by allowing him to rebuy to 20k?

May I suggest 1 rebuy OR 1 addon? Or, another way to solve this, is to allow players to forfeit their stack and rebuy (i.e. allowing A to rebuy to 20k).

(A similar situation happened at one of my tournaments, which tought me a lesson as a host)

 

[Mr Winberg]

Ok, I'm awake now:

20 players, 30% rebuy rate (which cannot be predicted in any way) and 20k stacks means 520k in play. The "20 BB rule" means that the tourney should end no later (without any guarantees) than when the BB is 26k... let's use 30k ;-)

Big Blinds (SB is half)
100
150
200
300
Break, color off T25
400
600
End rebuys (a good place is when the BB is ~3% of the starting stack)
800
1200
1600
Break, color off T100
2k
3k
Short break, color off T500
4k
6k
8k
12k
16k
Break, color off T1000
20k
30k

3 breaks of 10 minutes, 1 break of 5 minutes, drawing the final table takes 5 minutes, so that's 40 minutes of breaks.
6h=360 minutes leaves 320 minutes for poker. With 18 levels, that's just under 18 minutes per level. 18 minutes is close enough.

If you want to get the level time up to 20 minutes you need to remove 2 levels. One candidate is 75/150. There is no other good candidate, but you could merge 200/400 and 300/600 into 250/500, i.e.:
50/100
100/200
150/300
250/500
Break, color off T25, end rebuys
400/800
600/1200 etc...

It's up to your preference: Smaller (initial) increments or longer levels. I'd personally go with the latter, because it allows longer levels for the mid and end game (where peoples actions usually take more time) and the rebuys end at the break.

My T0.02

 

[Mr Winberg]

May I suggest 1 rebuy OR 1 addon? Or, another way to solve this, is to allow players to forfeit their stack and rebuy (i.e. allowing A to rebuy to 20k).

Please note that the structure is for the latter. If you choose the former (1 rebuy or addon), the chip count will most likely be closer to 800k since most people will use the option. That means the 20 BB rule says it will end at 20k/40k, i.e. one more level. IME tourneys usually end about a level before the "20 BB" prediction.

 

[Mr Winberg]

@TonZaga, did that make sense? Or were you after something else?

 

[TonZaga]

@TonZaga, did that make sense? Or were you after something else?

I think so. I've just never had more than a STT years ago. I want to be able to get at least 2 tables now but don't want to be a terrible host

 

[legonick]

IMO T25>T100>T5, but it seems like the T100 base is growing in popularity.

T100...superior format due to requiring less "chipping up" - the T100s stay in play for a lot longer.

T25 is still the granddaddy style because it's been around the longest. I'd recommend going T100 from the start since you don't have chips yet. Your players will quickly adapt and are unlikely to poopoo on the format.

 

[Mr Winberg]

T100...superior format due to requiring less "chipping up" - the T100s stay in play for a lot longer.

I'm actually still on the fence...maybe I'll prefer T100 soon enough ;-)

However, when comparing the two bases, the lowest chip of each base stays in play for about as long. This is if course dependent on the structure. I've compared the two bases below using "standard-ish" homegame structures (if there is such a thing ).

T25 base, 200BBs, starting stacks of 10k:
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color-up
200-400 etc

That's 5 levels.

A roughly equivalent base 100 structure, 200BBs, 40k stacks:
100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
Color-up
1000/2000 etc

That's 6 levels instead of 5. Not really that much longer.

However, most people who argue that the T100 stays for longer do something like this:

20k stacks, 200BBs:
100/100
100/200
100/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
Color-up
1000/2000 etc

That's 8 levels! Much more than 5! But comparing a lopsided structure like the above with a non-lopsided isn't fair IMO.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mr Winberg]

A base 25 with lopsided levels, 5k stacks with 200BBs:

25/25
25/50
25/75
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color-up

That's 7 levels compared to the 8 of the 100 base lopsided structure. Not that much shorter.

 

[legonick]

Blind Valet, a good site to play with blind structures, for a T100, 40K, 3.75 hour-targeted freeze-out gives:

1	15 (0:15)	100	200
2	15 (0:30)	200	400
3	15 (0:45)	300	600
4	15 (1:00)	400	800
5	15 (1:15)	500	1K
6	15 (1:30)	600	1200
7	15 (1:45)	800	1600
8	15 (2:00)	1K	2K
9	15 (2:15)	1200	2400
10	15 (2:30)	1500	3K
[...]

Also not in the lopsided camp.

That's chipping up after the 9th level VS the 5th you mentioned above. It keeps T100s in play almost twice as long!

 

[Mr Winberg]

It keeps T100s in play almost twice as long!

Actually no, it's an apples to oranges situation. Your structure is less steep then the ones in my examples due to the 500/1000 and 1200/2400 levels. You can't compare it to the 25 base structure I posted.

A equivalent base 25 structure with 200BBs (10k stacks) with equivalent blinds is:

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
125/250
150/300
200/400
250/500
Color-up
300/600
400/800 (almost equivalent. 375/750 is equivalent but would be weird. But it would keep the T25 to level 10. Just sayin...)

Level 8 vs level 9 of the 100 base.

My point is that the difference is usually one level if similar structures are compared. It's not fair to compare a steep structure to a more gradual one, the same way that it's not fair to compare lopsided structures with non-lopsided ones.

I'm not trying to be a d#ck, I'm just trying to keep the comparisons accurate.

 

[legonick]

Actually no, it's an apples to oranges situation. Your structure is less steep then the ones in my examples due to the 500/1000 and 1200/2400 levels. You can't compare it to the 25 base structure I posted.

A equivalent base 25 structure with 200BBs (10k stacks) with equivalent blinds is:

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
125/250
150/300
200/400
250/500
Color-up
300/600
400/800 (almost equivalent. 325/750 is equivalent but would be weird. But it would keep the T25 to level 10. Just sayin...)

Level 8 vs level 9 of the 100 base.

My point is that the difference is usually one level if similar structures are compared. It's not fair to compare a steep structure to a more gradual one, the same way that it's not fair to compare lopsided structures with non-lopsided ones.

I'm not trying to be a d#ck, I'm just trying to keep the comparisons accurate.

When switching in Blind Valet to T25 & with 200BB starting stack it comes out as level 7, so yes, not as steep a difference as the other example. 7 to 9.

What's interesting is, with the T100 structure, if you wait 1 more blind level, you could chip up the 500s as well. Blind Valet shows level 12 for the last with 100s.

So 7-8, dump T25s. 12-13 dump T100s.

Versus 9-10 dump T100s. 10-11 dump T500s.

I'd argue T100s are easier to math with as well.
T100: 1x, 5x, 10x, 50x... VS T25: 1x, 4x, 20x, 40x....

 

[JustinInMN]

To adjust for which base leaves the lowest chips in the longest you should consider blinds as multiples of the "base chip"

Base T25 Blinds (qty of base chips)
25-50 (1-2)
25-75 (1-3)
50-100 (2-4)
75-150 (3-6)
100-200 (4-8)
150-300 (6-12)
200-400 (8-16 or remove T25 and it's 2-4 of T100)

Base T100 Blinds
100-200 (1-2)
100-300 (1-3)
200-400 (2-4)
300-600 (3-6)
400-800 (4-8)
600-1200 (6-12)
800-1600 (8-16)
1000-2000 (10-20 or remove T100 and it's 2-4 of T500)

So all things being equal, because you can color up T25 at the 8-16 level, but cannot color up T100 until the 10-20 level, it will be about one level longer with base T100 chips as the base, because the next color up is a 5x jump, not a 4x one. Obviously you can draw structures differently, but if you use the same "root" levels, the T100 chips stay in play an extra level.

Now personally I have been on team base 500 for a while. But I think 4 levels, then break is about the perfect structure for my games.

500-1000 (1-2)
500-1500 (1-3)
1000-2000 (2-4)
1500-3000 (3-6)

2000-4000 (2-4 of T1K)

 

[Mr Winberg]

When switching in Blind Valet to T25

Blindvalet omits 125/250, so if comparing to a base 100 it basically skips the 500/1000 level. That's why it's 7 instead of 8.

Instead of using blindvalet, try comparing the different bases using equivalent blind structures (like I did in my post). Within reason, of course. Even I realize the ridiculousness of a 375/750 level ;-)

I'd argue T100s are easier to math with as well.

Yes, very much this. I agree. We Swedes don't use "25" in our daily life as you Americans do with quarters, so we aren't as used to counting them. Our quarters got removed during the eighties, I am used to coins of 0.10, 0.50, 1, 5, 10.

So for me, removing the 25 would be great! Just not for the reason of "they stay in play far longer".

So all things being equal, because you can color up T25 at the 8-16 level, but cannot color up T100 until the 10-20 level, it will be about one level longer with base T100 chips as the base, because the next color up is a 5x jump, not a 4x one.

That's a very nice way of looking at it!

 

[JustinInMN]

Personally I think the 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 (and possibly 12-24 and 16-32) progression is simple and better at generating good levels than any of these automatic tools, and as I showed above, the better way for controlling an apples-to-apples comparison of different bases.

 

[BGinGA]

^^ Justin is correct.

Blind Valet sucks at providing decent blind structures, imo.

 

[ParrotheadMZ]

Hate to revive an oldie but goodie but can I get some help on a 6 hour MAX blind structure (limit 1 rebuy) $20-25k starting stack?

And where is this game? Asking for a friend in Louisville lol
What part of the Ville’ ?
Jtown/fern creek here!

 

[TonZaga]

And where is this game? Asking for a friend in Louisville lol
What part of the Ville’ ?
Jtown/fern creek here!

I'm over by the Zoo. Not sure I'll get into tournaments anytime soon. I'd like to get another table, a tournament chip set, and run a MTT but I'm still having trouble filling 1 table for $0.25 cash games in today's climate LOL

 

[ParrotheadMZ]

Your by one of the greatest chippers of all time. He’s off popular level.
lmk if you get a game together or just want to meet up.
do you play anywhere? I might know you already. I’ll pm you