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Cheating in your home game? (56 Viewers)

roughrabbit

roughrabbit

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I listen to multiple poker podcasts and a topic that seems to get mentioned every couple episodes is the migration from casinos to home / private / underground games. This is almost always discussed in negative light and the focus is typically on the unscrupulous characters, game politics, predatory rake and outright cheating. There have been a couple of mainstream cheating scandals this past year so it has been a bit of a hot topic.

This talk did spur the question of if these issues are as prevalent as they are presented, mostly the cheating / angle shooting portion. Some of the cheating stories include long time players or people who were close in their personal life. Money will always have the opportunity to change people, and while I think my low stakes 0.25/0.25 is safe for now, looking to hear any experiences about cheating or scandals that others have occured in their own games. Additionally, are there any steps that members have taken to mitigate potential cheating in their own game?
 
I play extremely rarely, averaging well under 1 game a month.

I’ve played in less than 10 different home games total, I’ve played in less than 5 home games more than once.

From that number, there’s been cheating once, an “angle“ (cheating) once, and a bankroll stolen - all of those occurring at PCF hosted games.
 
Trusted, professional dealer, certainly paid by everyone (not just the host) in the end (per hour, plus tips, but NOT during the game).

Or, MECHANICAL shuffling machine with 2 decks, one in play, one being shuffled in the machine.
Absolutely, a cut card below the deck to be dealt.

If first time in a high-stakes underground game, demand your own out-of-the box cards to be used. 'cause some decks are marked out of the box, to be seen only by special contact lenses.
If told to fuck off, you can re-direct that wish, and leave.
 
A couple of sad cases of cheating I've read about on this forum.

Lots of ways to combat this as a host. Vet your players. I don't invite randoms, period. More for my own and my family's security than anything. I had to have played with someone somewhere else or know them outside of poker for them to get an invite.

Cutting the deck and using cut cards is self explanatory.

At the end of the day, I host to have fun and it's more of a social event than a roll busting card game.

Getting caught cheating or manipulating the deck in any way is an instant dismissal and permanent lifetime ban and if it's a PCF member, public shaming with a PSA announcement on here. Even if a non PCF'er, each local host I know within a 200 mile radius will get a notification.
 
I've played a few underground games in NYC when I was new and naive, and the only cheating/theft I noticed was the ridiculous rake. I've heard some horror stories of home games (even small stakes) getting robbed at gunpoint. I know it's not possible for everyone but I've decided that if a game is big enough that someone can make even a shitty living on it, I'll happily pay casino rake for the game security it brings. If someone is cheating at any home game I'm playing in then they're either really desperate or I'm playing too big of a game.

That said, many of these podcast hosts are talking about home games that are more like small enterprises built on capturing action from wealthy losing players, and the hosts aren't too keen to invite a clear winner unless there's something in it for them. An underrated form of cheating in a lot of these games is more of a soft collusion, where the winning players are sharing a bankroll, or all backed by the same person. As a host, without investing in some serious security measures, keep the game small enough or infrequent enough that cheating isn't worth the risk. Obviously, do your due diligence in who you invite and if you're really serious about game security, using auto-shufflers or having a dedicated dealer is an obvious next step but cost-prohibitive for a small home game. As a player, if a game seems too good to be true, it probably is. There are a million ways to be cheated in these games and you quite simply can't be aware of all of them.

At the stakes you're running, I think you're right to not be too worried, assuming your home game is just a social event for friends. Are you trying to recruit more players you don't know well, or play for more serious stakes in the future? Once the game crosses a threshold where, say, a 10bb/hr win rate is a meaningful amount of money, game security as a game-runner becomes a serious consideration. And with increased game security requirements, the temptation to take a rake or make some money off the game is a natural next step - dangerous territory. Not to mention, the amount of cash on premises making you a prime target for robberies.

If you're not interested in making significant investments in game security and possibly running afoul of local gaming laws in the process, the best advice I can give is simple: don't create a situation where the incentive to cheat is significant enough to cause concern. Keep it small, friendly and social.

That said, cheating is not impossible even at the smallest stakes, so it's on you as a game host to keep an eye out for unscrupulous behavior and enforce a zero tolerance policy towards cheating. To me, that includes angle shooting and any anti-social behavior that threatens to turn your social game into something... different. The players at your home game are there at your discretion, so don't hesitate to disinvite players who don't fit in.
 
Unfortunately I caught a close friend of a decade cheating at my game. He was on PCF, came to meetups, etc.

Don't think stakes have anything to do with it. This dude cheated at $.25/$.50 games, and my regular $1/$1 game.

Trust me, it will fuck you up for a while. It's sucked the joy of hosting right out of me, and I didn't enjoy playing for many months after.

It was also the last person in my group that anyone would have thought would be a cheater.
 
JMC9389 said:
Getting caught cheating or manipulating the deck in any way is an instant dismissal and permanent lifetime ban and if it's a PCF member, public shaming with a PSA announcement on here. Even if a non PCF'er, each local host I know within a 200 mile radius will get a notification.
Click to expand...
I confirmed a case of suspected cheating earlier this year at a game, and it helped me realize there’s no other option that permanent ban/blacklist once a cheater is outed:

I had occasionally played in a $1/$2 NL home game with the suspect over the course of a year, and the regulars in that game would describe him as quiet and unassuming. I did not know him except as a regular in this game.

Some of us, however, wondered why he was frequently involved in winning several big pots in improbable ways: for example, winning with a backdoor runner runner flush in a three way all-in, or in my case rivering a one outer for quad 4s vs my 55 on a J54 flop, 9 turn, 4 river. When I asked the host (a standup guy) if he had doubts, the host mentioned seeing similar hands in the past, but not seeing evidence of cheating.

Earlier this year, I played in a different $1/$2 game with the suspect and was trying to be careful in any pot I was in with him since he was two seats to my right. About 45 minutes into the game, the player in between the suspect and me declared, “I’ve been watching you (the suspect) and need to say it—you’re peeking at the bottom of the deck (Note: a cut card was being used) and you’re dealing the second card from the deck instead of the top card.” The suspect said “Are you calling me a cheater? You want me out of the game?” The accuser said “You can stay if you place the deck on the table when you deal.” The suspect agreed, and thankfully there were no unusual hands with the suspect for the rest of the game.

Afterwards, I found out from this new host that the accuser was his son and the son was a police officer in a nearby county. This explained why the officer was OK with a cheater continuing after a warning (do it again, and the cheater’s receiving a beatdown before getting banned). Anyways, my takeaways from that night were

1) Home game cheating often involves deck manipulation: in my case, the cheater played his big pots slowly and kept opponents to the river. By peeking at the deck and dealing the second card off the top, he could trap opponents for big money on the river card.

2) Dealing Procedures matter: in this case, having the deck on the table did prevent the cheater from peeking or dealing the second card. I can now see why there were threads on the forum about the rise of the Euro Pitch.

3) Reading and sharing about cheats helps to know what to look for: in this case, peeking and dealing the second card from the deck is to control the betting until all the cards are out. I thought back to the hand where I lost to quads—a normally played hand of set over set would have all ins by the turn. The way the hand played out, when he called my flop raise and turn pot bet, it felt so weird at the time that I just called his river reraise. Now I know why he played it that way.

4) Like @JMC9389 mentioned, I won’t be playing in any more games that invite the cheater, and I’m happy to give other hosts that I know a heads up.
 
CraigT78 said:
Unfortunately I caught a close friend of a decade cheating at my game. He was on PCF, came to meetups, etc.

Don't think stakes have anything to do with it. This dude cheated at $.25/$.50 games, and my regular $1/$1 game.

Trust me, it will fuck you up for a while. It's sucked the joy of hosting right out of me, and I didn't enjoy playing for many months after.

It was also the last person in my group that anyone would have thought would be a cheater.
Click to expand...
Sad to hear. Unfortunately, even small money (or competitive settings with no money involved!) can show you peoples' true colors. I've lost friends over small money before, loans that were never paid back and the like, and I try to optimistically look at it as a (relatively) cheap way to find out who your true friends are.

As someone who admittedly primarily has experience in more corporate "home" games (read: raked underground games), my previous post was more focused around the types of games OP mentioned re: bigger games moving from public casinos to private settings. I think that's where you're likely to find more sophisticated/premeditated cheating that requires more than a good set of eyes to enforce game security.
 
Coyote said:
Trusted, professional dealer, certainly paid by everyone (not just the host) in the end (per hour, plus tips, but NOT during the game).

Or, MECHANICAL shuffling machine with 2 decks, one in play, one being shuffled in the machine.
Absolutely, a cut card below the deck to be dealt.

If first time in a high-stakes underground game, demand your own out-of-the box cards to be used. 'cause some decks are marked out of the box, to be seen only by special contact lenses.
If told to fuck off, you can re-direct that wish, and leave.
Click to expand...
If someone wanted to bring their own cards I’d say absolutely not.

I gave @justincarothers BA setup to a game so they can check them out and dude said “oh I have to adjust the shuffling machine for different card thickness”.

I have never owned a shuffler and believed him. The next week he told me he was lying. He just would never use cards someone brought despite my good reputation. I don’t know what he did but he trusted them used them next week and ordered 70 decks.

I’m not offended and, in retrospect, echo his sentiments.
 
CraigT78 said:
Unfortunately I caught a close friend of a decade cheating at my game. He was on PCF, came to meetups, etc.

Don't think stakes have anything to do with it. This dude cheated at $.25/$.50 games, and my regular $1/$1 game.

Trust me, it will fuck you up for a while. It's sucked the joy of hosting right out of me, and I didn't enjoy playing for many months after.

It was also the last person in my group that anyone would have thought would be a cheater.
Click to expand...
1782773405041.gif
 
Darson said:
The very first time I hosted, a player cheated. He took extra chips from the bank and introduced them half was through the game. Lesson learned to keep your chips locked up and don’t trust anyone!
Click to expand...
Not sure if it's really practical, but is it worthwhile as a host to keep a ledger of chips in play when players buy in/cash out? Even as a form of security theater to discourage this type of behavior. Obviously in addition to keeping chips secured/locked up when not in play.
 
ockt said:
Not sure if it's really practical, but is it worthwhile as a host to keep a ledger of chips in play when players buy in/cash out? Even as a form of security theater to discourage this type of behavior. Obviously in addition to keeping chips secured/locked up when not in play.
Click to expand...
It's smart to know your set well enough where you can just spot check. I have a locking top file drawer that starts with $1950 in chips (300 * $5, 400 * $1, and 100 * 50¢) and $50 in small bills. So I know at any time I should be able to spot check cash and chips and it should always total $2000. I try and do that within a few minutes of every transaction to make sure I banked right.

But that's sufficient. Detailed ledgers are more squeeze than juice and honestly there is something distasteful about tracking players profit and loss that would open other issues.
 
In general, if you enforce good dealing procedure, you probably do enough to deter crooked dealers.

Separating the shuffle and cut I think helps a lot.

Also, my rules state "Cut cards protect the bottom of the deck, burn cards protect the top. Please use both correctly. Only burn cards at the conclusion of a round of action, never in advance." (I always push back on pre-burn dealers, not that I think they are cheating, but because I want to show good procedure as a deterrent, and to prevent premature burn-and-turns.)

Sure it's possible a player will come that can beat these measures, (and yes, I remember @CraigT78 talking about confronting a dealing issue issue in his game) but I think a little effort in game protection goes a long way as a deterrent.

And yes chip security is important. I touched above on securing your drawer, but also, never use stock chips.

With stock chips, you have another vulnerability besides people going into the drawer as with @Darson 's sad case. People can just bring in their own fives and twenty-fives or whatever denominations you use.

At least get semi-customs from @BR Pro Poker if you have a game that uses $5 denominated chips or higher. You can get a decent 600 chip set for what a bad night at 1-2 would cost. (Or less than someone slipping in a barrel of twenty-fives would cost if you want to look at it another way.)
 
I think this happens because people have trouble filling games and start reaching out to unknown people.

My game has been 90% the same players for 10-25 years. Most of the time when I add someone new they are known to me outside of poker or are a close friend of a long time player in my group. If I even suspected anything would never invite them back. The fact I just added two PCF member in the last year is unusual for me. (They seem to be very nice guys 😉)
One of my long term players started playing in a Facebook page game. He invited me to a few games. Nothing shady but some creepy loser types. That said there were 2-3 of them I liked. I’ve invited them a few times …but only when I need players

I realize I’m very lucky to have this situation but you have use common sense.

I’m also very fortunate that there are 3-4 of my long time regular guys who are ALWAYS paying attention…even at 3am…way more than me when I’ve been drinking. They often catch miss bets, pot issues, etc. Even if I gave an extra chip (or shorted 😬) in a rebuy …from across the table….at 2:25 am after playing for 7 hours. They are also highly skeptical of newer guys in the game 😂
 
I've gotta have thousands of hours of lifetime play in home games, and so far:
  • I've only ever outright caught a cheat in a home game once, described in the thread linked above (My First Time Catching a Cheat).
  • I was once a player in a game where a player was caught cheating at SOHE by swapping cards between hands.
I've only run into a small amount of angle-shooting in home games, and usually it comes down to an individual with slippery ethics, not a general problem of angles being accepted behavior. Home games have the benefit of being able to just uninvite the person with or without cause.

I've come across far more sketchy behavior in public cardrooms:
  • players covering their cards with their hands to induce others to act out of turn
  • players peeping other players' hole cards and not saying anything
  • players hiding high-value chips in the back of a stack
  • bad dealers exposing cards during the deal (and the house is unwilling to take action)
  • various forms of collusion between friends at the table
  • players speaking languages other than English even after being warned
  • players texting each other at the table mid-hand
Whatever tiny amount that enterprising home game thief is taking, it's probably pennies compared to the rake the cardroom is consistently taking out of the game. If that doesn't actually get you a fair game, it's not really a good trade-off.

Then there's the question of "private" or "underground" games, i.e., games that are somewhat like a home game but with a rake.

In my experience, these have the most potential to be truly terrible. They tend to play at casino stakes, with all the risks that entails, but without the advantage of casino security or a gaming commission. The rake is usually deep off the bat, AND they expect you to tip the dealer even if the host is dealing, AND they may be over-raking pots without your knowledge, AND you run the risk of losing everything and potentially being arrested in a raid. Once in a while you may find a legitimately good raked private game, but it's not a good scene in general.
 
We vet all of our players, I use a set of semi custom chips, I use six different sets of custom tiles and I know exactly how much is in play prior to handing chips out. Everyone does. We use an automatic table for the higher staked games. The nature of the game allows for a crib sheet to be maintained through play of wins/loses. There has been one issue in the 12 years of playing at my home and surprisingly, it occurred with a relative in a small stakes game. It got heated fast but ultimately solved. The relative has apologized but has never been invited back to play. Not even for fun.
 
Coyote said:
but NOT during the game
Click to expand...
Curious to the logic here. My dealers get tipped all night and usually by the big winners at the end of the night, too.
Coyote said:
first time in a high-stakes underground game, demand your own out-of-the box cards to be used
Click to expand...
If someone came to my game and made a demand the first time, they'd be laughed off the premises. Maybe request is a better word, but not to get hung up on semantics... my real question is what if several players demand their own decks? How does the host know the requesting party isn't the cheater using these contacts?

Call me crazy, but I think some common sense can eliminate some issues. If I was to go somewhere else to play a home game for my first trip, I'm way more concerned about being jumped or something, which has happened to me. I'm pretty much not going unless I'm going with at least one buddy who has played/can vouch for the game. Beyond that, I'm keeping a close eye on things as I do in any game, to see who the real card players are, who are the recs, the nits, are there potential cheaters, etc.

I'm also not too fussed if I get "cheated" out of a few hundred bucks. I'm not trying to sound big time, but anyone on PCF who has sets worth $10k+ can probably say the same thing, which is most of us. It sucks, but so do a lot of concerts I go to and spend that much on a ticket. If it's an actual high stakes game where I could be cheated for thousands of dollars, I'm taking the precautions I mentioned above, sticking to hosting or playing at a casino.
 
CraigT78 said:
Unfortunately I caught a close friend of a decade cheating at my game. He was on PCF, came to meetups, etc.

Don't think stakes have anything to do with it. This dude cheated at $.25/$.50 games, and my regular $1/$1 game.

Trust me, it will fuck you up for a while. It's sucked the joy of hosting right out of me, and I didn't enjoy playing for many months after.

It was also the last person in my group that anyone would have thought would be a cheater.
Click to expand...
Makes you wonder if the person has been cheating you the whole time you've known him, and wonder how he's able to return game after game and keep cheating with no apparent conscience about it.

The loss of trust is so complete upon catching a cheat that you'll regret ever having him around. Did he steal from your home in addition to cheating? Has he tried to improperly access anything, e.g., on a computer you left running? Most likely none of this happened, but you can't assume anything once you know someone's willing to cheat his "friends" at a game in one of their own homes.
 
Jers28 said:
Curious to the logic here. My dealers get tipped all night and usually by the big winners at the end of the night, too.

If someone came to my game and made a demand the first time, they'd be laughed off the premises. Maybe request is a better word, but not to get hung up on semantics... my real question is what if several players demand their own decks? How does the host know the requesting party isn't the cheater using these contacts?

Call me crazy, but I think some common sense can eliminate some issues. If I was to go somewhere else to play a home game for my first trip, I'm way more concerned about being jumped or something, which has happened to me. I'm pretty much not going unless I'm going with at least one buddy who has played/can vouch for the game. Beyond that, I'm keeping a close eye on things as I do in any game, to see who the real card players are, who are the recs, the nits, are there potential cheaters, etc.

I'm also not too fussed if I get "cheated" out of a few hundred bucks. I'm not trying to sound big time, but anyone on PCF who has sets worth $10k+ can probably say the same thing, which is most of us. It sucks, but so do a lot of concerts I go to and spend that much on a ticket. If it's an actual high stakes game where I could be cheated for thousands of dollars, I'm taking the precautions I mentioned above, sticking to hosting or playing at a casino.
Click to expand...
Underground is NOT a home game
Even if played in a private property.
 
Jimulacrum said:
Makes you wonder if the person has been cheating you the whole time you've known him, and wonder how he's able to return game after game and keep cheating with no apparent conscience about it.

The loss of trust is so complete upon catching a cheat that you'll regret ever having him around. Did he steal from your home in addition to cheating? Has he tried to improperly access anything, e.g., on a computer you left running? Most likely none of this happened, but you can't assume anything once you know someone's willing to cheat his "friends" at a game in one of their own homes.
Click to expand...
Nope, he started cheating after taking over dealing once our non playing dealer left for a card house in Houston.

He did not steal from the house, in fact he'd give you the shirt off his back. He sponsored all of my charity events, co hosted my meetups, and was very generous with his time and his money. Money wasn't the motivation - he's a director at a FAANG and his wife owns multiple rental houses.

He was a cheat because it satisfied the addict part of his brain, which was why everyone was so shocked.
 

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