Great fold or....
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PAHWM (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter MrCatPants
- Start date
Moxie Mike
Full House
Knowing nothing about your opponent other than the fact that he/she limp-called a significant overbet while fairly deeply stacked, HERO can probably anticipate getting called no matter how much he bets if the villain has a jack, a 10 or a flush draw. So bet big.
I'm probably betting $15-$20 here.... he's calling anyway so you might as well help him make the biggest mistake possible. Unfortunately, about half the deck sucks if it hits the turn and you're not getting away from top set so plan to jam any turn... I mean - you're not check-folding ever to a scary turn card here are you?
Alternatively, there's a case to be made to jam this flop. It's overkill, but it's probably the only way you're going to be able to protect your hand if the villain has a draw.
I'm probably betting $15-$20 here.... he's calling anyway so you might as well help him make the biggest mistake possible. Unfortunately, about half the deck sucks if it hits the turn and you're not getting away from top set so plan to jam any turn... I mean - you're not check-folding ever to a scary turn card here are you?
Alternatively, there's a case to be made to jam this flop. It's overkill, but it's probably the only way you're going to be able to protect your hand if the villain has a draw.
upNdown
Royal Flush
Flop is great for you. Given villain's preflop play, I'm not sure it's even worth considering ranges, though I'm not sure ranges even matter on this board. I'm betting around a third of the pot, in hopes that he's got something he can chase.
The one thing I’m not doing here is shoving. You’re only going to get called by a straight. Not many worse hands can call here.
I’m somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 pot here. Flushes are still going to draw out against you and 10x hands will stay in (AT, KT, etc). Theoretically all these hands are unsuited given the pre flop action.
I’m somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 pot here. Flushes are still going to draw out against you and 10x hands will stay in (AT, KT, etc). Theoretically all these hands are unsuited given the pre flop action.
CAN'T WE JUST SEE A FLOP?
I like the first part - overbet this flop. You're very strong but there are a lot of turns you hate, and in this game people are most likely looking at the absolute value of your bet and not the fraction of the pot you're betting. $15 works for me.
That said, jamming is a huge overplay. You will get called by straights and lose value by folding out everything else.
NEW RULE:
PAHWM must be in Bomb Pot form
Moxie Mike
Full House
The case for jamming is that if he bets $15 and gets jammed on, he's not folding top set. Ever. So even if the Villain flopped a straight he's going to get it in anyway but in that scenario he's only a ~2:1 dog... not great but not terrible either.
I'm not saying this is the best EV play - I'm saying the only real way to protect his hand is to apply max pressure.
Frogzilla
Straight Flush
at cat pant game it is dangerous to restrict yourself to only not doing one thing. You also want the freedom to not lick cards, not pee on the wall, not release tension onto the felt, did I miss any, cat pants game is so insane
OP
OP
MrCatPants
Full House
dis not my game bro
Late to the party but I would have gone exactly $4 pre, like you did, maybe $3.50. Now, in most our .25/.50, all 3 limpers would have called . . .
At flop, I bet $6-$7. More if I think villain will call, I want max value. As wet as the board is I am not worried about turn or river yet . . . yet. If they flopped a straight, so be it, I'm probably going broke.
At flop, I bet $6-$7. More if I think villain will call, I want max value. As wet as the board is I am not worried about turn or river yet . . . yet. If they flopped a straight, so be it, I'm probably going broke.
OP
OP
MrCatPants
Full House
Context:
Casual game, many irregular players - a lot of limping and calling with mediocre hands.
Cash game - .25/.50
SB: 50 BB
BB (Hero): 180 BB
UTG : irrelevant
UTG +1 : irrelevant
MP: 50 BB
HJ: 120 BB
CU: irrelevant
BTN: irrelevant
MP flat calls 1BB
HJ flat calls 1BB
SB completes to 1BB
BB (Hero) looks down at
Hero raises to 8BB
Multiple at the table groan. "$4? Pre flop? You haven't even seen the first few cards! I really wanted to play this hand. etc. etc."
MP folds
HJ calls 8 BB
SB folds
Pot is 18 BB
Flop comes and is...good, but dynamic?
Hero debates for a bit, thinking range should hit his opponent way better than hero's range, but given the limpiness still opts to bet. Bets 10BB
HJ thinks for a few seconds and then calls.
Pot is 38 BB
Turn is gross.
Action on hero.
Casual game, many irregular players - a lot of limping and calling with mediocre hands.
Cash game - .25/.50
BB (Hero): 180 BB
UTG +1 : irrelevant
MP: 50 BB
HJ: 120 BB
BTN: irrelevant
MP flat calls 1BB
HJ flat calls 1BB
SB completes to 1BB
BB (Hero) looks down at
Hero raises to 8BB
Multiple at the table groan. "$4? Pre flop? You haven't even seen the first few cards! I really wanted to play this hand. etc. etc."
MP folds
HJ calls 8 BB
SB folds
Pot is 18 BB
Flop comes and is...good, but dynamic?
Hero debates for a bit, thinking range should hit his opponent way better than hero's range, but given the limpiness still opts to bet. Bets 10BB
HJ thinks for a few seconds and then calls.
Pot is 38 BB
Turn is gross.
Action on hero.
Frogzilla
Straight Flush
Check call with the set and the straight draw
Moxie Mike
Full House
What's the logic with this bet sizing on the flop?Context:
Casual game, many irregular players - a lot of limping and calling with mediocre hands.
Cash game - .25/.50
SB: 50 BB
BB (Hero): 180 BB
UTG : irrelevant
UTG +1 : irrelevant
MP: 50 BB
HJ: 120 BB
CU: irrelevant
BTN: irrelevant
MP flat calls 1BB
HJ flat calls 1BB
SB completes to 1BB
BB (Hero) looks down at
Hero raises to 8BB
Multiple at the table groan. "$4? Pre flop? You haven't even seen the first few cards! I really wanted to play this hand. etc. etc."
MP folds
HJ calls 8 BB
SB folds
Pot is 18 BB
Flop comes and is...good, but dynamic?
Hero debates for a bit, thinking range should hit his opponent way better than hero's range, but given the limpiness still opts to bet. Bets 10BB
HJ thinks for a few seconds and then calls.
Pot is 38 BB
Turn is gross.
Action on hero.
Are you ever getting away from top set? I would think not.
So there's $19 in the pot and stack sizes are $50 effective? Given how we got here, I'd bet big to lay a -EV price to the flush draw.
Checking is bad if they check back and take the free card off.
I'd say bet $15 and see what your opponent does.
When I flop top set, I'm more concerned about getting value than protecting my hand.
Open shoving folds out so much of Villain's crushed range that you can get value from - pair, two pair, naked straight and flush draws. You want those hands to call or raise you, and a massive overshove will chase them all off.
All that will remain are straights and high equity combo draws like
, and suddenly you're flipping for stacks.
JMC9389
Royal Flush
And that's why I jam on the flop. Make the flush and straight draws commit their stack before bullshit like that comes on the turn. Happy to take it down from there. You're ahead but there a lot of scare cards and there are still two streets to play.
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Way too small IMO. I'd've made it at least a small overbet like $10 (20bb) - maybe more depending on history with and stickiness of Villain.
Get more value, charge a worse price for draws, and make it easier to get stacks in by the river on a good runout.
(Note: the
is not a good runout. Tell your dealer to deal better. 
)
That’s why this is not a case. Against a straight, it’s getting all in regardless. Our bet sizing should not be targeting a straight, we are trying to get lesser hands to put money in while losing. Just my 2 cents.
Probably just these two. MP stoned off his balls and oddly pissy this game. SB resident sloptard that will compulsively complain about any bet pre, but is simultaneously a huge nit. Will save HJ read for end.
BTN folded 76o pre but 'wanted to play it'
BTN/dealer wants BB and HJ to somehow both lose.Tell your dealer to deal better.
"ugh! I would've hit a straight!" Button says to everyone that's listening, n=0.Probably just these two. MP stoned off his balls and oddly pissy this game. SB resident sloptard that will compulsively complain about any bet pre, but is simultaneously a huge nit. Will save HJ read for end.
BTN folded 76o pre but 'wanted to play it'
BTN/dealer wants BB and HJ to somehow both lose.
View attachment 1582905
Barf.
How is villain going to respond to a check from you? A small bet? Will he slowplay a straight or rip it? If you check, will he bet a flush draw or a worse hand like 1P/2P?
Basically SPR now is 2:1. Worst case scenario is
(you have 20%), against a random 
you're about 30% to win or chop.I see these options:
- Check-call up to pot. You're telling a thinking villain that you don't have a straight, but you're also giving rope for villain to bet weaker hands.
- Bet half pot (20bb) and call a jam if villain has anything other than a straight in his range. You're getting 2:1 on the call and are 30% against most Tx but a large favorite against anything else. If villain is the type to only jam with a straight here, the math says fold but it's close.
- If you check and villain jams, it's a fold unless you want to YOLO call it off and hope for the river to pair the board.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Let me rephrase. Jamming is the best way to avoid an uncomfortable situation when a shitty turn card hits. It's the lowest variance play. I never said it was the correct play or what I would do. But it is an option.
I don't think jamming kills his action in this spot as often as one might think. Depending on the amount of gambool his opponent has of course... he may get action from Jx, bare 10s, flush draws, combo draws, etc.
Sorry if I misunderstood, but from reading your posts I thought you were advocating a flop jam as a reasonable option.
It is an option, but IMO it's a bad one. You are risking your entire stack to push out all the hands you beat and lose to the hands that crush you. Yes it lowers variance but it also costs you a lot in both lost value and inability to get away when you are behind.
Yeah, I can get behind an exploitative shove against a specific known villain, but I wouldn't advocate it as a general option.
Ok, this is an interesting card, and what makes this difficult is we have no information on the player.
I’ve been going back and forth with this and I think the hands here are limited to hands like ATo, A9o that floated (Ah would be required to float here), T7, 67 suited (“6-7, I can hear my son saying it now) and 78suited could be here. I can’t think of very many other hands. My gut tells me the T paired his hand though.
Again, we don’t have any information so I’m inclined to check here as we try and sneak our way to showdown. It would be really nice to see this guys hand so we have information going forward.
I’ve been going back and forth with this and I think the hands here are limited to hands like ATo, A9o that floated (Ah would be required to float here), T7, 67 suited (“6-7, I can hear my son saying it now) and 78suited could be here. I can’t think of very many other hands. My gut tells me the T paired his hand though.
Again, we don’t have any information so I’m inclined to check here as we try and sneak our way to showdown. It would be really nice to see this guys hand so we have information going forward.
upNdown
Royal Flush
Nobody's suggested that he has pocket 8's or 9's. Seems possible, given the action. And that's a good reason for me to check the turn - if he does happen to have one of those hands, he'll happily give me all his chips if the board pairs.
OP
OP
MrCatPants
Full House
I agree with all this thinking.Barf.
How is villain going to respond to a check from you? A small bet? Will he slowplay a straight or rip it? If you check, will he bet a flush draw or a worse hand like 1P/2P?
Basically SPR now is 2:1. Worst case scenario is
I see these options:
- Check-call up to pot. You're telling a thinking villain that you don't have a straight, but you're also giving rope for villain to bet weaker hands.
- Bet half pot (20bb) and call a jam if villain has anything other than a straight in his range. You're getting 2:1 on the call and are 30% against most Tx but a large favorite against anything else. If villain is the type to only jam with a straight here, the math says fold but it's close.
- If you check and villain jams, it's a fold unless you want to YOLO call it off and hope for the river to pair the board.
88 or 99 from the HJ would be opening, no? Thats why I remove those from villain’s range here.
upNdown
Royal Flush
I think a lot of people (like maybe the grumbly ones in this game?) will limp call middle pairs from any position. I dunno, just a thought.
Agreed. I place those solidly in the limping range for people who are coming after raising whippersnappers.
Frogzilla
Straight Flush
I hope it goes check check river offsuit ten and get to bluff overbet jam
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