Tourney Why do 20,000 over a 10,000 starting stack with a T25 tourney? (1 Viewer)

[sebjag]

I'm curious on why would one go for a 20K starting stack over a 10K for a tournament with a T25?

I watched the Chris Manzoni home tournament structure video which has been really useful! But is choosing a 20K starting stack over a 10K one just because people want to have more chips to play with or is there other pros?

A con I see is that a 20K starting stack requires more chips in the set...

 

[UncleMilty]

Pro- Because it works
I have been hosting Saturday night games with friends and friends of friends for almost 2 years now. 10 to 16 people per game from a pool of about 40 people. About 3 months ago i used his video to reshape our game including the chip bonuses for on time arrival and exact change. We have started every game on time and everyone loves the new blind structure (his, but starting at 50/100) and how consistent the game plays now. Starts at 6 and ends at 10:30 /11:00pm every week. My people all like big but manageable chip stacks. 20K is only 30 chips plus the 3 bonus chips, and a bounty. That’s my take.

 

[sebjag]

Appreciate your reply @UncleMilty! The tubes to organize the stacks are an awesome idea btw!!!

 

[TheJestyr]

Personally I love a T25 10k starting stack tourney. First blind level 25/25. My first swop main event I ever played in had that structure and I love it. But especially if I’m trying to keep the tournament under like 6 hours, I think T25 10k is perfect. Got a full day for a 10-14 hour tournament? Or a two day event? Sure, experiment with deeper stacks. Got guys who just wanna get the big chips in play? Ok, why not. But if I could only organize one tournament for the rest of my life, it would be T25 with 10k starting stacks.

 

[MeridianFC]

I want to state right from the get-go that I switched to the Manzoni Tactical Tournament Protocol (all rights reserved) a couple of years back and have used it for tournaments from 3 to 6 tables and it just really works.

I'm primarily interested in cash games but do enjoy tournaments but I've never really had a structure that worked well till the MTTP. It does seem like T10K would be a natural since that's what the WSOP used to be (or is it still? I haven't been paying attention.) but again this works.

Those that are smarter than myself, which is basically everybody on this site, will probably have a better sense of the math and mechanics of it. When I look at it, I see 400BB to start, which is a lot of play, but I think that's good because this is being used by Home players. One could not play a hand for the entire first set of rounds (up to the 150/300 level) and not really be forced into a shove situation. That's said when the pressure comes it does move the game along, and I have noticed in my use of it that when people start busting they do so at a pretty good clip (a good thing).

It is true that the structure has the potential to have a game run long, but there are small tweaks that can be made to fix that. Pay attention to the advice regarding antes.

 

[sebjag]

Personally I love a T25 10k starting stack tourney. First blind level 25/25. My first swop main event I ever played in had that structure and I love it. But especially if I’m trying to keep the tournament under like 6 hours, I think T25 10k is perfect. Got a full day for a 10-14 hour tournament? Or a two day event? Sure, experiment with deeper stacks. Got guys who just wanna get the big chips in play? Ok, why not. But if I could only organize one tournament for the rest of my life, it would be T25 with 10k starting stacks.

Hey @TheJestyr appreciate your insight too! What are your blind levels btw if I may ask? And do you allow for re-buys (if so how many)? Just curious on different structures, as I know people who have experience have their own favorite ways of playing which may be useful to others too

 

[sebjag]

I want to state right from the get-go that I switched to the Manzoni Tactical Tournament Protocol (all rights reserved) a couple of years back and have used it for tournaments from 3 to 6 tables and it just really works.

I'm primarily interested in cash games but do enjoy tournaments but I've never really had a structure that worked well till the MTTP. It does seem like T10K would be a natural since that's what the WSOP used to be (or is it still? I haven't been paying attention.) but again this works.

Those that are smarter than myself, which is basically everybody on this site, will probably have a better sense of the math and mechanics of it. When I look at it, I see 400BB to start, which is a lot of play, but I think that's good because this is being used by Home players. One could not play a hand for the entire first set of rounds (up to the 150/300 level) and not really be forced into a shove situation. That's said when the pressure comes it does move the game along, and I have noticed in my use of it that when people start busting they do so at a pretty good clip (a good thing).

It is true that the structure has the potential to have a game run long, but there are small tweaks that can be made to fix that. Pay attention to the advice regarding antes.

I appreciate your breakdown too @MeridianFC! I'm fairly new to playing poker with proper structures, so with you mentioning it, I just noticed the 400BB with the Manzoni starting blinds which makes complete sense with what you're saying of the game being much more laid back (up to the 150/300 level). I know Manzoni mentioned using antes for tournaments bigger than 15 players.. Any reason to not use antes for a less than 10 player tournament?

 

[TheRealStephen12]

I'm curious on why would one go for a 20K starting stack over a 10K for a tournament with a T25?

I watched the Chris Manzoni home tournament structure video which has been really useful! But is choosing a 20K starting stack over a 10K one just because people want to have more chips to play with or is there other pros?

A con I see is that a 20K starting stack requires more chips in the set...

Largely preference for most people. Standard blind progression is 33-50% increases, which means an increase from 25/50 to 25/75, which SB is not exactly half the BB. If you’re ok with that and don’t want to pay for the extra chips, then go for it.

It does seem like T10K would be a natural since that's what the WSOP used to be (or is it still? I haven't been paying attention.) but again this works.

They have been using T60K starting stacks for $10K events for a couple of years.

 

[Defarse]

400bb with no antes sounds like torture. 200bb max and preferably even smaller (I like 125bb T100 25,000). No more quarters (this isn't 2017).

 

[BGinGA]

We run 16-player 20k stack (12/12/5/6/2) T25-base tournaments featuring individual antes (dedicated dealers), single re-buys, and 50/100 starting blinds (200bb -- relatively deep with a correspondingly low 15%-20% re-buy rate, mostly coolers and bad-beats).

The structure uses a medium-aggression blind progression (33%-50% increases, averaging 43%), with 20-minute blind levels and hourly breaks (two are also color-ups). The 20k stacks with 50/100 blinds combo avoids the odd 25/75 second level while maintaining level-to-level consistency with zero 100% blind increases.

Events typically finish by L15 (6k/12k blinds) or about 5.5 hours total including break times.

 

[MrCatPants]

I do 15k, starting at 25/50, and we have a max of one rebuy. It's organized so that everyone gets a few hours of poker outside of the occasional early double cooler situation. Then the waterline of the blinds starts rising to the point where people get short and busts start coming, and it still keeps the tourney on track. Been an effective happy medium for us for a while.

 

[springbox]

Natural advantage I can think of is it lets your first two levels go 50/100 then 75/150. 10k by contrast would go 25/50, then either an awkward 25/75, or a big spike to 50/100. If you have a chipset that can easily handle 20k starting stacks it's an obvious benefit, but I don't think 25/75 is that much of a problem.

 

[Defarse]

then either an awkward 25/75

People need to get over the 'awkward' 25/75, 200/300, etc. It's a number.......the number corresponds to chips sitting in front of you.......it's not hard to put in one 25 chip in the small blind or 3 chips in the big...........the blinds are constantly changing so all you have to do is put out your blind.

 

[springbox]

People need to get over the 'awkward' 25/75, 200/300, etc. It's a number.......the number corresponds to chips sitting in front of you.......it's not hard to put in one 25 chip in the small blind or 3 chips in the big...........the blinds are constantly changing so all you have to do is put out your blind.

As I said, I don't think it's an issue, but some people prefer that the BB always be strictly double the SB. I can say that when I ran a tournament that went 100/200, 100/300, 200/400 players were slightly confused and messed up their SB occasionally on the 100/300 level, but they were relative newbies.

 

[BPTDirector]

If I gave my guys 20k start stacks I’d have to start charging rent, lol. We prefer slower progression of blinds with fewer starting chips. I start with 7k, 12 to 16 players, game lasts 5 to 5.5 hours regularly.

 

[tabletalker7]

To me this discussion is all about 1 question. Do you see poker as a sport or the social experiment?

Poker as a sport is cutthroat. You want the smaller starting stacks to force action. Survival of the fittest and big dog eats and all that.

Poker as a social experiment is all about providing the venue for people to come together and spend time enjoying the company of other people. The larger starting stacks allows the weaker players to survive long enough to enjoy the experience.

 

[Machine]

A con I see is that a 20K starting stack requires more chips in the set...

I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, I'm all out of bubble gum.

Here I am with my glasses, looking at you, saying "Moar chips, Contra?!!!?"

 

[ChaosRock]

People need to get over the 'awkward' 25/75, 200/300, etc. It's a number.......the number corresponds to chips sitting in front of you.......it's not hard to put in one 25 chip in the small blind or 3 chips in the big...........the blinds are constantly changing so all you have to do is put out your blind.

No, it is not 'just' a number. It changes the play. Your steal range changes if the blinds are 25/25, 25/50 or 25/75 or whatever combination you choose.

Is it doable? Sure. Is it irrelevant? No.

Same goes for tourneys with antes and without antes.

One can choose whatever structure one wants but the game plays slightly different. Or at at least it should...

 

[ChaosRock]

We run 16-player 20k stack (12/12/5/6/2) T25-base tournaments featuring individual antes (dedicated dealers), single re-buys, and 50/100 starting blinds (200bb -- relatively deep with a correspondingly low 15%-20% re-buy rate, mostly coolers and bad-beats).

The structure uses a medium-aggression blind progression (33%-50% increases, averaging 43%), with 20-minute blind levels and hourly breaks (two are also color-ups). The 20k stacks with 50/100 blinds combo avoids the odd 25/75 second level while maintaining level-to-level consistency with zero 100% blind increases.

Events typically finish by L15 (6k/12k blinds) or about 5.5 hours total including break times.

Exact same here.

(Although in most cases I use T2K/T10K instead of the regular T1K/T5K chips with starting stacks of 12/12/9/7 for a cool two barrel stack.)

 

[Defarse]

No, it is not 'just' a number. It changes the play. Your steal range changes if the blinds are 25/25, 25/50 or 25/75 or whatever combination you choose.

Lol, newbies getting confused about a small blind that is 1/3 the size of the big blind are not thinking about 'steal ranges'

 

[MeridianFC]

To me this discussion is all about 1 question. Do you see poker as a sport or the social experiment?

Poker as a sport is cutthroat. You want the smaller starting stacks to force action. Survival of the fittest and big dog eats and all that.

Poker as a social experiment is all about providing the venue for people to come together and spend time enjoying the company of other people. The larger starting stacks allows the weaker players to survive long enough to enjoy the experience.

This.

I think Chris is pretty clear in describing his game that the purpose is the latter. As it is for me also.

 

[BPTDirector]

Poker is about winning ! Anything else would be a waste of time. We socialize while we try to eliminate each other.

 

[Defarse]

Poker is about winning ! Anything else would be a waste of time. We socialize while we try to eliminate each other.

This. Maybe try having a social hour or BBQ before the tournament instead of slogging through tortuous 400bb tournament poker. They'll learn quick not to dust off their stack so quickly.

 

[doughboy63]

We run 16-player 20k stack (12/12/5/6/2) T25-base tournaments featuring individual antes (dedicated dealers), single re-buys, and 50/100 starting blinds (200bb -- relatively deep with a correspondingly low 15%-20% re-buy rate, mostly coolers and bad-beats).

The structure uses a medium-aggression blind progression (33%-50% increases, averaging 43%), with 20-minute blind levels and hourly breaks (two are also color-ups). The 20k stacks with 50/100 blinds combo avoids the odd 25/75 second level while maintaining level-to-level consistency with zero 100% blind increases.

Events typically finish by L15 (6k/12k blinds) or about 5.5 hours total including break times.

Any chance you’d share your blind structure?

 

[justsomedude]

I'm curious on why would one go for a 20K starting stack over a 10K for a tournament with a T25?

There's really no right or wrong when it comes to starting stacks or base chip selection... it's mainly about working out your structure to have smooth and relatively even & consistent level jumps.

Of course, starting stack size will also impact event run-time, but everything is adjustable. I've run "deepstack" 30,000 starting stack events with a T25 base without issue (they just ran a bit longer - as was expected).

Heck, the WSOP ME had 50k starting stacks with a T25 base in 2018 before it switched to a T100 base 60k stack in 2019.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

If I gave my guys 20k start stacks I’d have to start charging rent, lol. We prefer slower progression of blinds with fewer starting chips. I start with 7k, 12 to 16 players, game lasts 5 to 5.5 hours regularly.

Do you have a base T25? It seems like your starting stacks might be too shallow unless you start with 25/25, and even then the jump to 25/50 is very large.

 

[JDPoker]

I use a somewhat different structure, mainly because we need to finish up within 4-4.5 hours so the blinds rise pretty aggressively. I use 10K to start (with 2K for on time arrival), rebuys for 1 hour, then a 20k add on. We start at 100/200 (15 min levels), and after the add-on we're at 600/1200. My feeling is I want most of the guys to be able play comfortably for 2 hours or so...it's no fun going home after 60 minutes, and we don't have enough players (12-16) to get a cash game going that early.

I honestly don't think the game would play much differently if we started with 20K, but we'd probably get 1 or 2 less rebuys.

I ordered T25's and bounty chips recently, so we may be shaking things up a little soon.

 

[BPTDirector]

Do you have a base T25? It seems like your starting stacks might be too shallow unless you start with 25/25, and even then the jump to 25/50 is very large.

Stacks are plenty deep, no pressure just good solid poker. 7k is 140 bb deep give me a break. Too many chips is just as bad as not enough.

 

[Defarse]

Do you have a base T25? It seems like your starting stacks might be too shallow unless you start with 25/25, and even then the jump to 25/50 is very large.

Lol 25/25 to 25/50 is VERY LARGE???? I guess if the table is knitting sweaters.

 

[Defarse]

Heck, the WSOP ME had 50k starting stacks with a T25 base in 2018 before it switched to a T100 base 60k stack in 2019.

Comparing your home game to a 10 day tournament with the most unique structure in the world may not be something to aspire to.