Windwalker’s Chipping Journey in Pr0n0grAph1C Detail (21 Viewers)

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Idk about cost, but security yes and to differentiate chips from each other on the cams when they are in the trays. Heard it was a no no for example for dealers to line up edge spots in the trays because it makes the chips hard to differentiate. @BGinGA knows the nitty gritty details, but that was my takeaway

I was just thinking how the top 3 spot patterns for any given denomination (except maybe once you get above $100) would probably account for +40-60% of the spot patterns for any given live casino denomination that also seem to progress in complexity. Given the number of different spot patterns available that can’t be just chance right? I know there’s some spot & color restrictions on white $1s but it’s not like we see a lot of 8v, 4v418, or bearclaw $5s either (damn them). No matter the reason the end result is a lot of casinos stumble into decent spot progression such as the new kids on the block:

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

Group think maybe or the way things have always been done? Just a quick guess, but only reason for complex high denoms from their standpoint would be to quickly and easily identify them I’d assume. Which results in decent progression, but obviously doesn’t require “perfect” progression as we chippers look at it. But again I will defer to Dave

 

[Windwalker]

I was just thinking how the top 3 spot patterns for any given denomination (except maybe once you get above $100) would probably account for +40-60% of the spot patterns for any given live casino denomination that also seem to progress in complexity. Given the number of different spot patterns available that can’t be just chance right? I know there’s some spot & color restrictions on white $1s but it’s not like we see a lot of 8v, 4v418, or bearclaw $5s either (damn them). No matter the reason the end result is a lot of casinos stumble into decent spot progression such as the new kids on the block:
View attachment 531463View attachment 531462

I just thought of one other reason / thing. See, *WE* are the only crazies that would try and design our own edgespot / color combinations if we opened a casino. I suspect what probably happens is that said casino contracts GPI and its designers to give them a recommendation, with a creative brief provided and identity guidelines provided. If that's the case, then it would explain the homogeny you see above.

Also -- if someone is doing this day in and day out, they probably don't look at it like a labor of love, and maybe just focus on basic design principles that are highlighted in the brand guidelines from the casino and security specs at GPI.

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

I just thought of one other reason / thing. See, *WE* are the only crazies that would try and design our own edgespot / color combinations if we opened a casino. I suspect what probably happens is that said casino contracts GPI and its designers to give them a recommendation, with a creative brief provided and identity guidelines provided. If that's the case, then it would explain the homogeny you see above, but also, if someone is doing this day in and day out, they probably don't look at it like a labor of love, and maybe just focus on basic design principles that are highlighted in the specs at GPI.

I was curious about this from the NAGB standpoint. How does an 8V quarter not sound alarm bells inside the GPI factory LOL

 

[Taghkanic]

As someone who in my younger days wrote a lot (and ran juries) about graphic and industrial design—meaning the design of mass-produced products, not the design of smokestacks—I wouldn’t really expect many casino owners to have thought deeply about chips. Even though they are so central to a casino’s brand and customer experience.

... At least, not beyond wanting something vaguely cool or elegant or distinctive. While not having the faintest how to achieve those goals. (I’m sure there must be a few exceptions.)

It‘s the kind of task best delegated to a design team or consultant with deep expertise, not to the owner. The owners and managers should be smart and aware enough to recognize its importance, and to leave it to specialists.

Yet I’m constantly stunned by poor design choices in casinos (whether in lighting, seating, carpets, tables, felts, cards, signage, digital interfaces, menus, uniforms, furniture, chips, etc.). It’s bizarre, considering their startup budgets.

Braun, VW, Apple and others led the way in the past ~60 years in making big business much more aware of the power of industrial and other design practices to drive awareness and sales, and improve customer experiences... And as a society we’re much farther along today than in my youth in that regard. But even so, really really basic design mistakes still happen in all industries, I think because people at the top either overestimate their own skills, or just don’t adequately value certain areas of design.

An example from the movie biz: Having a background in typesetting, I can’t count the times I’ve facepalmed in the first five minutes of a film with a budget of $150 million+ ... After all that dough spent on stars, sets, locations, you name it, apparently someone’s nephew set the text for the opening credits in the iMovie default font. Someone who doesn’t even grasp the rudiments of typographic literacy.

So when casinos do have great chips, my guess is that a lot of the credit probably goes to the manufacturer in trying to gently guide the client toward something nicer.

As such... I’m not so surprised that my home casino has had, since its opening just a few years ago, a massive promotional sign something like 40 feet wide by 20 feet tall, taking up much of the visual space at its main entrance, featuring pictures of stacks of *dice chips* ... They didn’t even bother to use their own RHCs in the image.

 

[Windwalker]

It‘s the kind of task best delegated to a design team or consultant with deep expertise, not to the owner. The owners and managers should be smart and aware enough to recognize its importance, and to leave it to specialists.

Yes!! That was my point above. The delegation of design shows the lack of understanding of the importance of it. But I’m also grateful, because it gives me work to do.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

@Windwalker get me in the room where GPI and a casino talks about chip designs and we can talk CGs. I’ve never been more curious about anything in the chip world than that.

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

@Windwalker get me in the room where GPI and a casino talks about chip designs and we can talk CGs. I’ve never been more curious about anything in the chip world than that.

Can you bring a +1 Tom?

 

[Windwalker]

@Windwalker get me in the room where GPI and a casino talks about chip designs and we can talk CGs. I’ve never been more curious about anything in the chip world than that.

So who was the progenitor of the term “cocaine giraffe”? Someone named it. Who was it?

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

So who was the progenitor of the term “cocaine giraffe”? Someone named it. Who was it?

@HaRDHouSeiNC made the observation here. Then I used “cocaine giraffe” in my wanted ad after reading it LOL

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rate-this-inlay-toys-r-us.59037/#post-1146955

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cocaine-giraffes-5s.59054/

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

@Windwalker get me in the room where GPI and a casino talks about chip designs and we can talk CGs. I’ve never been more curious about anything in the chip world than that.

Edit: I make no promises that I won’t losing my cool and start creaming at whoever inevitably ends up suggesting a 212 spot for the $1 chip

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

@HaRDHouSeiNC made the observation here. Then I used “cocaine giraffe” in my wanted ad after reading it LOL

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rate-this-inlay-toys-r-us.59037/#post-1146955

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cocaine-giraffes-5s.59054/

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rate-this-inlay-toys-r-us.59037/post-1146957

Best comment of that whole ordeal
When you said that I could have spit out my coffee

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rate-this-inlay-toys-r-us.59037/post-1146957

Best comment of that whole ordeal
When you said that I could have spit out my coffee

Oh I did it too

 

[pltrgyst]

So, I’ll start by saying this has been one hell of a learning process, the past few months. I think the hardest thing to realize is that PCF has a vocabulary all of its own, combined with more popular terms from the glossary of chip collectors....

Terrific response, thanks. And thanks for the careful thought that goes far beyond what could have been expected from most people.

.... I’m putting together my first mixed leaded Paulson/THC set, and trying to figure out appropriate spot progressions. I was in Nevada last weekend and a friend of mine who owns a casino there let me up into their “eye in the sky” room to show me how what we call edgespots are their primary mechanism to track issues with chips on tables. We of course, look at them as design elements more than security features, but also ways to make sure the set feels “cohesive”.

Another fun discovery was that “spot progression” and “set cohesion” is a PCF thing, not something that people really look at in casinos....

Yes, there seems to be a correlation with general OCD tendencies in many PCFers, including me. And then there's the issue of inlay shape progression (I'm still trying to find a $20 or $25 with hub inlay that will fit in my all-hub mixed set.)

or me, a perfect set would be:
...
- A white hundo

Any particular reason for white rather than, say, black? I'm especially curious here because I generally don't care for white anything, but even I feel the pull of Aztar MO $1s and Vineyard 8V hundos.

...
- A red frac

There aren't too many of those around, but they're really appealing -- either as fracs or as $1s, IMO.

 

[pltrgyst]

....what probably happens is that said casino contracts GPI and its designers to give them a recommendation, with a creative brief provided and identity guidelines provided. If that's the case, then it would explain the homogeny you see above.

Often wondered about this. I'm pretty sure there are some casinos who don't rely on GPI's in-house designers, simply because their chip lines are so outstanding from the crowd -- Harrah's New Orleans being a prime example. I'd love to know who did their design.

 

[Windwalker]

Any particular reason for white rather than, say, black?

The set, colors and inlays I described as my ideal ones include bright, poppy colors and whimsical inlays.

The hundo will be one of the workhorses of my game, and there is likely to be a large number of them on the table. Black is an authoritative color, but a large amount of it can mute, sullen and restrict the open, fun, airy feel I want for that set. In color theory, white is the presence of all colors, and black is the lack of any — white Is used to depict joy, openness and wonder; black depicts power, strength, sometimes even evil; and so while black is an excellent choice, say, for my “whiskey chic” set of chips, for this particular theme of whimsy and fun, I didn’t think it would be the appropriate choice.

There aren't too many of those around, but they're really appealing -- either as fracs or as $1s, IMO.

I just acquired these:

 

[juankay20]

Edit: I make no promises that I won’t losing my cool and start creaming at whoever inevitably ends up suggesting a 212 spot for the $1 chip

... but what about 214s or 314s................................................

 

[Josh Kifer]

The set, colors and inlays I described as my ideal ones include bright, poppy colors and whimsical inlays.

The hundo will be one of the workhorses of my game, and there is likely to be a large number of them on the table. Black is an authoritative color, but a large amount of it can mute, sullen and restrict the open, fun, airy feel I want for that set. In color theory, white is the presence of all colors, and black is the lack of any — white Is used to depict joy, openness and wonder; and so while black is an excellent choice, say, for my “whiskey chic” set of chips, for this particular theme of whimsy and fun, I didn’t think it would be the appropriate choice.



I just acquired these:

View attachment 531611

Antique rose 50 cent chips are red spotted fracs...

 

[ssanel54]

Often wondered about this. I'm pretty sure there are some casinos who don't rely on GPI's in-house designers, simply because their chip lines are so outstanding from the crowd -- Harrah's New Orleans being a prime example. I'd love to know who did their design.

Think about all the design work that goes into a casino before they even consider chips

 

[ssanel54]

Black is an authoritative color, but a large amount of it can mute, sullen and restrict the open, fun, airy feel I want for that set. In color theory, white is the presence of all colors, and black is the lack of any — white Is used to depict joy, openness and wonder; black depicts power, strength, sometimes even evil; and so while black is an excellent choice, say, for my “whiskey chic” set of chips, for this particular theme of whimsy and fun, I didn’t think it would be the appropriate choice.

Says the guy with the Dark Knight avatar

 

[Windwalker]

Says the guy with the Dark Knight avatar

I was talking about my chips, Scott. Not me. I’m a dark, sullen bastard. Brooding as we speak.

 

[CrazyEddie]

You're actually Bruce Wayne, aren't you? Relocated from Gotham to LA...

 

[ssanel54]

I was curious about this from the NAGB standpoint. How does an 8V quarter not sound alarm bells inside the GPI factory LOL

You generally need to be approved as an account before any designs are submitted, and once you are approved, the compliance group is no longer involved. for the Chicken Coop set, he did a nickel chip and they didnt question it at all.

This may have changed after sunset beach though, as it seems like they are paying more attention to PCF and looking at the buying trends. I would be particularly cautious for any future NAGB's that try to submit an all 43mm set, since thats not very typical in any casino, but pretty typical around here.

 

[Eloe2000]

The real hero of PCF won't be the next person to pull off a "direct buy", but the person that somehow gets Paulson to make home market chips again. Nudge nudge.

 

[Windwalker]

The real hero of PCF won't be the next person to pull off a "direct buy", but the person that somehow gets Paulson to make home market chips again. Nudge nudge.

We are all our own heroes.

 

[dennis63]

@dennis63 would know about this too from his time as a casino dealer. His thread on it is really worth a read for anyone that has an hour of free time.

That's absolutely correct. As a dealer, I was not permitted to purposely align edge spots, or even to touch the chips when not actually dealing. If I wanted to "clean up" the rack by arranging the chips and placing lammers between 20 chips in the tubes, I was required to do it in front of the floor manager, or to call out "cleaning the rack," and he or she would come over and watch me straighten things up.

Otherwise, your hands had to be above the table. No putting your hands in your pockets, etc. You learn after awhile to just rest your hands on top of the table when you're not actively dealing.

There must be a strict visual acuity requirement for floor managers. I know they were able to "read" the rack very quickly -- glance at it for a few seconds and be able to tell exactly how much money you had in chips in the rack. They seemed to be able to do it from anywhere in the pit.

And floor managers loved a "clean rack." Lammers between 20 chips in the tubes, with numbers less than 20 divided by lammers at the top, closest to the players -- four x $25 between lammers or five x $5 between lammers if you didn't have 20.

But you'd never want to align the edge spots, as it would make it harder for security to "read" the stacks, either in your rack or on the table. If there was a dispute, those cameras could save your ass, so you didn't want to make things harder for them.

 

[gmunny]

I was just thinking how the top 3 spot patterns for any given denomination (except maybe once you get above $100) would probably account for +40-60% of the spot patterns for any given live casino denomination that also seem to progress in complexity. Given the number of different spot patterns available that can’t be just chance right? I know there’s some spot & color restrictions on white $1s but it’s not like we see a lot of 8v, 4v418, or bearclaw $5s either (damn them). No matter the reason the end result is a lot of casinos stumble into decent spot progression such as the new kids on the block:

I always thought this was more because of cost and security. Meaning that keeping the cost point lower for those chips that you have to order more of, usually the lower denoms. This assumes pricing is similar to CPC where the they are priced by size and by insert/spot complexity. Not sure how the prices are set at Paulson. Also if you keep the higher denoms more complex, the less likely that someone can slip in a $1 chip into a $100 stack. my 02 anyhow.


Love all the chip pic and your post WW. i feel like you went from KinderG to PHD while i am still throwing rocks at my neighbor, Robby.

 

[timinater]

The average possible number of versions per chip/edgespot pattern is 109,736.

I was curious and did a calculation once upon a time for how many unique combinations for a single chip there were with CPC. With mold, base colour, spots, inlay shapes and spot colours - It’s in the billions with all of those variables.

That average number of 100k possibilities is in line with what I was calculating too.

 

[timinater]

I just thought of one other reason / thing. See, *WE* are the only crazies that would try and design our own edgespot / color combinations if we opened a casino. I suspect what probably happens is that said casino contracts GPI and its designers to give them a recommendation, with a creative brief provided and identity guidelines provided. If that's the case, then it would explain the homogeny you see above.

Also -- if someone is doing this day in and day out, they probably don't look at it like a labor of love, and maybe just focus on basic design principles that are highlighted in the brand guidelines from the casino and security specs at GPI.

When I worked at a casino, doing design, we did some commemorative chips at my insistence. I don’t even think the approvals went up to my VP of marketing.

Really the only resistance to the entire idea was keeping the order reasonable since any chip put into play carried with it a financial impact in terms of liability. (Commemorative $100’s got nixed for that reason)

 

[Taghkanic]

Just to illustrate a point made about 50 posts ago... Here is how much Rivers Casino in Schenectady values the design of their chips... This banner on the side of the building near the entrance is enormous. They have also used dice chips in TV ads.