How not to play QQ (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

I wanted to share this hand form ACR 10NL blitz. Now my play here is very straightforward and obvious and doesnt take much poker know-how, rather I think it's Villain's play that should be a discussion of how NOT to play a strong hand. Maybe she is a beginner as she evidences some beginner flaws - I figure that pointing those out may help newer players.

Folds to V in HJ who opens to 12BB with QQ. This is obviously bad for several reasons:
1. if you open for larger sizes with stronger hands, you are providing useful information about your hand strength. This is called a "sizing tell."
2. the larger your open, the more linear and stronger your opponents' calling and 3! ranges are going to be. If you open very large with a medium strength hand, you become more and more likely only to be called (or god forbid raised) with hands that have you crushed. If you have a very, very strong hand you are likely folding out many hands that would otherwise call and possibly put more money into the pot, limiting your winnings.

This is why most players open for a fixed size regardless of hand strength. Some players vary open size only based on position, for example 2.2BB from early position to 3BB on BN. This increases the bet size in positions where we are more likely to realize equity and neither approach gives away information about our hand.

Hero's play is obvious - we 3! to 3x and V jams. I dont ever think Hero calling here is correct with AA - IMHO anyone opening for 12BB isnt scared of a 3! and a jam is likely. It goes without saying that my 3! range here should be incredibly tight. Maybe only AA, KK, AKs given the large open size.

My 3! range is about 3:1 against QQ. Clear fold here for V IMHO, but consistent with his bad play he jams.
Is anyone in my position ever bluffing this size? I cant imagine that doesnt scream a HUGE HAND to anyone who plays regularly.

Obvious outcome (not a suckout thread!)

 

[joeyshin]

I love how you immediately assume it was a girl in the beginning. Maybe you already knew her?

 

[boltonguy]

I am using a gender-neutral mix of pronouns; using both "he" and "she" in my post about V.

 

[Senzrock]

6Max cash game ~70 bb's deep, I don't fault anyone for getting it in pre with QQ tbh. The most egregious action was the silly 12x open but I think arguing for a fold from QQ once they get 3! by you seems way too tight. Just so often it's AK and you are torching $. Many players (not you obviously) would be getting JJ and TT in here as well.

 

[Senzrock]

anyone who plays regularly.

Non one who plays regularly is ever opening to 12x right? So we can safely assume that this is not a regular. This is a low stakes newbie who doesn't know how to interpret your 3! most likely if I had to guess. We should keep pushing ourselves not to assume too much about villains (ie. this is clearly what they should be doing in such and such spot) because it underestimates how BAD many beginners are. In turn, we lose out in the long run because we give villains too much credit for hands (we might fold AK here for example when they 4!, which would be a massive mistake after the 3!.

 

[Legend5555]

Non one who plays regularly is ever opening to 12x right? So we can safely assume that this is not a regular. This is a low stakes newbie who doesn't know how to interpret your 3! most likely if I had to guess. We should keep pushing ourselves not to assume too much about villains (ie. this is clearly what they should be doing in such and such spot) because it underestimates how BAD many beginners are. In turn, we lose out in the long run because we give villains too much credit for hands (we might fold AK here for example when they 4!, which would be a massive mistake after the 3!.

Even "bad" players today are nowhere near the level of "bad" back when I started online in 2004. It's almost hard to describe the difference things have changed so much. Back then you could literally just get paid off by TP every time you had a set.

 

[CrazyEddie]

It's incoherent to refer to the same individual using a mix of gendered pronouns. Just use "they" to refer to a person of unspecified gender; that usage has been common for centuries. Example: "If you need a replacement part, talk to a sales rep; they can order one for you."

 

[philhut]

It's incoherent to refer to the same individual using a mix of gendered pronouns. Just use "they" to refer to a person of unspecified gender; that usage has been common for centuries. Example: "If you need a replacement part, talk to a sales rep; they can order one for you."

KK when busted at my games took on the nickname "brokeback mountain" QQ "Mob Squeezers"

we were politically correct ahead of our times also avoiding gender pronouns.....

 

[CrazyEddie]

There's also nothing wrong with assuming the gender of someone whose gender cannot be determined. Calling the villain here either "he" or "she" is perfectly fine; in either case, your audience will know that you are making a hypothetical statement for the purpose of rhetorical fluidity, and that the gender of the person in question is irrelevant to the narrative.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

So back to the hand

 

[jpietrella]

12BB open is super weird and probably makes it more difficult to fold. That said, maybe you know all these folks pretty well already but I also don't fault anyone gettting it in with the 3rd nuts preflop, 6-handed. This doesn't seem that bad to me but I guess I am a chump.

 

[boltonguy]

I just think my 3! to almost 40BB is so incredibly strong, he has to know he's behind or flipping with AK

 

[Legend5555]

I just think my 3! to almost 40BB is so incredibly strong, he has to know he's behind or flipping with AK

Well... If that's the case then is 3 betting this big correct?

 

[boltonguy]

Well I know he's not "normal" so logic goes out the window as I think he is jamming in response.

 

[Legend5555]

If we assume the player is thinking, then your logic about folding QQ makes since sense. But once you leave the realm of optimal play, you should really just be concerned with maximizing profit. A 12bb open to me reads often as "never folding." So I just do whatever I think makes it easiest for them to get it in.

 

[CrazyEddie]

If Villain thinks that Hero would 3bet with TT or JJ then villain's jam isn't bad, and it gets even better if you throw in hands like AQ, KQ, or Ax. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

Villain's open is a sizing tell, and Villain probably should stop doing that. But it's also an obvious and presumably deliberate advertisement of strength, and Villain should expect that Hero will treat it as such, meaning Villain should expect Hero's 3bet range to shrink accordingly. Would Villain Hero still 3bet with TT, though, even taking that into account? Maybe, and if so, a jam is still okay.

And while by this argument Villain's jam might have been reasonable, it's unlikely that Villain actually jammed after following any of this reasoning. There's no telling what he was actually thinking. Probably "QQ is a great hand, I should bet big" followed by "QQ is a great hand, I should jam".

 

[boltonguy]

I'm not 3! TT to that sizing. Maybe calling if I'm in a gambling mood but mostly folding QQ- and moving on to the next hand.
That type of open has to be QQ+

 

[Jimulacrum]

Bold to assume that your sub-cheeseburger-stakes opponent is putting significant thought into opponents' ranges or GTO optimizing raise sizing.

This is what's going on inside the head of a player who shows up with $10 to gamble, loses $3 of it, and wakes up with QQ:

And this is what's going on inside his/her/its head when you happen to have AA a few seats over:

He/she/it probably raised so much intentionally to ensure that this would be an all-in pot. Your reraise was welcome because it meant all the money could go in preflop. Obviously this isn't an optimal play, but if we're talking about a low-skill player who was inevitably going to lose anyway, it's better to get the money in preflop than to try to play a big pot against someone of higher skill in the later rounds, or to let yourself get pushed out of pots when you have a big hand.

Isn't that the principle behind so many of those "all-in specialists" who used to turn up in the WSOP? They knew they weren't as good as the field, so they employed a strategy that put all the emphasis on preflop play in order to minimize the edge of the better players.

Not a winning strategy, exactly, but you can do worse.

Spoiler: On Pronouns

Agree with @CrazyEddie that you should stick with a consistent pronoun for the same person, even if it's not known. Mixing up pronouns like that can make for awkward reading. If you want to vary it up so you're not biased toward one sex, toss a coin to choose male or female. (I don't recommend using they for a singular subject, regardless of how long others have been making this error. English has enough flaws already.)

 

[Legend5555]

Bold to assume that your sub-cheeseburger-stakes opponent is putting significant thought into opponents' ranges or GTO optimizing raise sizing.

This is what's going on inside the head of a player who shows up with $10 to gamble, loses $3 of it, and wakes up with QQ:

View attachment 923644

And this is what's going on inside his/her/its head when you happen to have AA a few seats over:

View attachment 923644

He/she/it probably raised so much intentionally to ensure that this would be an all-in pot. Your reraise was welcome because it meant all the money could go in preflop. Obviously this isn't an optimal play, but if we're talking about a low-skill player who was inevitably going to lose anyway, it's better to get the money in preflop than to try to play a big pot against someone of higher skill in the later rounds, or to let yourself get pushed out of pots when you have a big hand.

Isn't that the principle behind so many of those "all-in specialists" who used to turn up in the WSOP? They knew they weren't as good as the field, so they employed a strategy that put all the emphasis on preflop play in order to minimize the edge of the better players.

Not a winning strategy, exactly, but you can do worse.

Spoiler: On Pronouns

Agree with @CrazyEddie that you should stick with a consistent pronoun for the same person, even if it's not known. Mixing up pronouns like that can make for awkward reading. If you want to vary it up so you're not biased toward one sex, toss a coin to choose male or female. (I don't recommend using they for a singular subject, regardless of how long others have been making this error. English has enough flaws already.)

You obviously don't play online if you think that the majority of players that play "sub-cheeseburger" stakes online don't put thought into what they are doing. This one didn't. But A LOT of them do.

 

[Jimulacrum]

You obviously don't play online if you think that the majority of players that play "sub-cheeseburger" stakes online don't put thought into what they are doing. This one didn't. But A LOT of them do.

Fair enough. It's true, I don't play online anymore except in private clubs. Risk/reward went totally out of whack for me after the cheating and stealing scandals. Since then the player pools are disproportionately high-skill players looking to churn out an income, if not bots, even at micro-stakes.

I'll take my loosey-goosey home games all day over that.

 

[Quad Johnson]

Even "bad" players today are nowhere near the level of "bad" back when I started online in 2004. It's almost hard to describe the difference things have changed so much. Back then you could literally just get paid off by TP every time you had a set.

Late response but yes. Amid the 00's recession, you could print money at the microstakes by just playing ABC TAG poker. The difference in play is staggering, folks were just giving their money away back then.

I appreciated the side income.

 

[Taghkanic]

12BB open is super weird

Mainly weird, but sometimes not weird. For me it depends a lot on how the game flow has been going, and/or how well the players know each other.

In some games I find that preflop sizes undergo steady inflation as the game wears on... especially when there are a lot of limpers or calling stations. People start out disciplined using 2.2-3x but soon that becomes, 4x, 5x, 7x, 10x, 12x, etc.

So things can get to the point where if you don’t open huge, you wind up with 3-5 players going to the flop. QQ might still be ahead of each of those players, but behind against the whole field (given that any A and any K can outdraw you, and cumulatively all the drawing hands become more likely to flop well).

In short, in such games, it sometimes becomes necessary to bet big pre to have any chance of getting heads up.

Similarly, if you know one or more players is way too loose and way too likely to call wide, and is “inelastic” to bet sizes, and/or doesn’t really pay attention to how you vary your sizing, then you might as well just go ahead & bloat the pot pre with premiums.

And! This can also happen when a a few players get either way up and try to use their stacks to bully the table, or get badly stuck and are trying to chase losses by bloating pots... I know, dumb, but I’ve seen it plenty... Guy is stuck 400BB so he rebuys for the max and starts repotting/shoving huge to try to double up and get even quick.