Home Game - incessant limping - how to combat? (2 Viewers)

[SaucyAussie]

I play in a monthly low stakes home game tournament, usually around 15 players, 7 or 8 per table.

I find that nearly everybody limps in every hand, they could have 5-6s, 10-J, or Q-A, it doesn't matter. If someone raises it usually means AA or KK.

Suggestions on a strategy here? With so many in the hand, chances are that someone will have something decent.

Do I play tighter? Looser? Raise more? Limp along with them? Any suggestions appreciated!

(I am basically a beginner, so keep it simple for me.)

Edit: I did just find this thread which I am finding very helpful!
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-to-beat-a-pretty-soft-and-slow-tournament-game.74466/

 

[Eriks]

Raise your premiums and limp along with hands that play well multiway such as small pocket pairs, Axss, suited connectors.

Don’t bother c-betting your whiffed AKs into multiple opponents but value bet relentlessly when you do hit. Don’t hero call when you face resistance though, in fact in an average soft homegame it’s probably right to overfold to aggression. And don’t bluff yourself.

 

[Senzrock]

Also make lots of snarky comments about how everyone limps way too much

 

[Willpass]

make them pay for seeing cards. evaluate what their range is and if they want to see cards, bomb that pot with chips so it hurts to limp.

 

[eightyWon]

oops, wrong thread

 

[Legend5555]

If they are limping tons of stuff, then you should be raising pre flop with all your good value hands like 88+ and pretty much all suited broadways. If you find people will limp and then fold, you can expand that range. If they always limp and call pretty much no matter the raise size then you can play a bit exploitatively and raise bigger with stuff like QQ+ and AKs.

If you have raised and get more than 2 callers, just play extremely straight up post flop. Don't bluff unless it's a really strong draw. Don't c-bet your total whiffs.

Fast play all your strong hands. This includes fast playing all your sets, flopped flushes, flopped straights, etc. Never slow play anything unless you have a really good reason to. Reasons could be players dependent, or flop dependent. For example, slow playing KK on K72 rainbow where it's hard for anyone to have anything.

When limping hands like 56s etc, be careful when you make non-nut flushes and straights though. These types of hands actually go down in value in 3+ way pots. It's easier for someone else to over flush you given the number of opponents.

Don't be afraid to value bet rivers with hands as weak as top pair good kicker even when the draws get there. This is primarily when heads up at the river and a lone villain checks the river even when the draw gets there. They will call with way more stuff than you think because they don't think you would bet just 1 pair on these rivers. They will often think you are bluffing. And if they check raise, you just fold. This does come with the risk of value owning yourself where you value bet and get called by slightly better. But that's fine. If that never happens, you aren't value betting often enough.

 

[megarises]

Fast play all your strong hands. This includes fast playing all your sets, flopped flushes, flopped straights, etc. Never slow play anything unless you have a really good reason to. Reasons could be players dependent, or flop dependent. For example, slow playing KK on K72 rainbow where it's hard for anyone to have anything.

This has worked really well for me in our home games. I also run a monthly home game where we play tournaments consisting of 14-16 players on average. Outside of myself and 2-3 others there is hardly any pre-flop raising and almost zero three or four betting. Players are really sticky, happy to see free cards, and difficult to bluff. I tighten my range and try to punish them when I hit a hand.

 

[inthehiggs]

Raise your premiums and limp along with hands that play well multiway such as small pocket pairs, Axss, suited connectors.

Don’t bother c-betting your whiffed AKs into multiple opponents but value bet relentlessly when you do hit. Don’t hero call when you face resistance though, in fact in an average soft homegame it’s probably right to overfold to aggression. And don’t bluff yourself.

Couldn't have said it better simply myself. Always remember its usually really hard to bluff a beginner, who might call all streets with a small pair. I had a newer player call my 3-Bet (My hole cards were ) with the villain holding. Flop comes . I C-bet, player calls and turn is villain hesitantly calls. river is . Near player at a home game, played scared money, I shove all-in expecting an insta muck. Instead an immediate call with 7-2 off.... If it would've been a set of 2's on the flop, it wouldn't have hurt as bad as f'n 7-2 off. You certainly have to take a different approach. Sometimes for me that's meant putting in really big pre-flop raises in low stakes home games, just to scare off weak hands, but that's simply poker. You gotta love it and the bad beats.

TLDR: Beginner called 3-Bet preflop with 7-2 off and hero called AK suited in a busted flush draw bluff.

 

[inthehiggs]

This has worked really well for me in our home games. I also run a monthly home game where we play tournaments consisting of 14-16 players on average. Outside of myself and 2-3 others there is hardly any pre-flop raising and almost zero three or four betting. Players are really sticky, happy to see free cards, and difficult to bluff. I tighten my range and try to punish them when I hit a hand.

This too. The more you tighten up and punish them when you hit, the more it will cause them to have to start playing with more aggression, since they will want to do the same (eventually). I've found that beginners that want to progress past just socially playing eventually grow out of passive play. It's certainly something that takes time, particularly with a game of mostly newer players playing with scared money in a home game.

 

[MrCatPants]

Squeeze with your strong hands pre-flop. My group, depending on the table, has some of these tendencies.

So if you've already got a couple of limpers in a hand, make it hard to continue by raising 5-7x to open.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

If they are limping tons of stuff, then you should be raising pre flop with all your good value hands like 88+ and pretty much all suited broadways. If you find people will limp and then fold, you can expand that range. If they always limp and call pretty much no matter the raise size then you can play a bit exploitatively and raise bigger with stuff like QQ+ and AKs.

If you have raised and get more than 2 callers, just play extremely straight up post flop. Don't bluff unless it's a really strong draw. Don't c-bet your total whiffs.

Fast play all your strong hands. This includes fast playing all your sets, flopped flushes, flopped straights, etc. Never slow play anything unless you have a really good reason to. Reasons could be players dependent, or flop dependent. For example, slow playing KK on K72 rainbow where it's hard for anyone to have anything.

When limping hands like 56s etc, be careful when you make non-nut flushes and straights though. These types of hands actually go down in value in 3+ way pots. It's easier for someone else to over flush you given the number of opponents.

Don't be afraid to value bet rivers with hands as weak as top pair good kicker even when the draws get there. This is primarily when heads up at the river and a lone villain checks the river even when the draw gets there. They will call with way more stuff than you think because they don't think you would bet just 1 pair on these rivers. They will often think you are bluffing. And if they check raise, you just fold. This does come with the risk of value owning yourself where you value bet and get called by slightly better. But that's fine. If that never happens, you aren't value betting often enough.

I had lots of ideas as to how to respond, but I’ll never do better than this. This is just stellar. It should be bronzed.

 

[Colquhoun]

The more you tighten up and punish them when you hit, the more it will cause them to have to start playing with more aggression, since they will want to do the same (eventually).

What I’ve found is that beginners, when they can’t limp, will just groan and whine when you raise preflop.
Too often, they look at poker much like a slot machine… get the money in and hope they hit.

They view your preflop bet as you interfering.

 

[Eriks]

What I’ve found is that beginners, when they can’t limp, will just groan and whine when you raise preflop.
Too often, they look at poker much like a slot machine… get the money in and hope they hit.

They view the preflop bet as interference.

I can relate, this is how I play PLO

 

[MrCatPants]

I can relate, this is how I play PLO

equities run so much closer pre-flop in PLO though that it makes a little more sense in that game.

 

[inthehiggs]

I can relate, this is how I play PLO

Wait, you mean this isn't how you are suppose to play PLO and PL08?

 

[Eriks]

Wait, you mean this isn't how you are suppose to play PLO and PL08?

I know, right @Anthony Martino ?

 

[inthehiggs]

What I’ve found is that beginners, when they can’t limp, will just groan and whine when you raise preflop.
Too often, they look at poker much like a slot machine… get the money in and hope they hit.

They view your preflop bet as you interfering.

This 100%. I have certainly had some beginners/very social players tell me I was playing too aggressively and "ruining the fun by not letting everyone in". I'm sure I was called some colorful names after I left. Some people purely play for the social aspect, and sometimes those games can be good, and sometimes you realize you should probably find a different game.

 

[Colquhoun]

This 100%. I have certainly had some beginners/very social players tell me I was playing too aggressively and "ruining the fun by not letting everyone in". I'm sure I was called some colorful names after I left. Some people purely play for the social aspect, and sometimes those games can be good, and sometimes you realize you should probably find a different game.

I think many beginners treat poker like roulette... its them against the game.
They treat poker like that, they're placing a bet and waiting for all the cards to come so there can be a "winner".

They don't treat the game as if it's them against everyone else.

 

[Grandmasturkey]

I play in a monthly low stakes home game tournament, usually around 15 players, 7 or 8 per table.

I find that nearly everybody limps in every hand, they could have 5-6s, 10-J, or Q-A, it doesn't matter. If someone raises it usually means AA or KK.

Suggestions on a strategy here? With so many in the hand, chances are that someone will have something decent.

Do I play tighter? Looser? Raise more? Limp along with them? Any suggestions appreciated!

(I am basically a beginner, so keep it simple for me.)

Edit: I did just find this thread which I am finding very helpful!
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-to-beat-a-pretty-soft-and-slow-tournament-game.74466/

Excessive limping can only be combated in one way: excessive raising and development of a no-limp zone @Chawks45

 

[DrStrange]

"Punishing the limpers" is exploitable and loses expected value. Some misguided villain deciding to relentlessly teach those limpers a lesson becomes my favorite sucker at the table, Much more so with < 100bb stacks. But even deeper, that player becomes my chief huckleberry. I might only get my hooks deep into his/her hide a couple of times a session. But value that comes from a limp/check - three bet strategy can be huge.

Hero should be thrilled to get the choice of limping speculative hands that benefit from high SPRs and raising premium hands for value. Why would anyone want to give up this opportunity?

It is worth noting that letting people limp way too often is good for the game. Relentlessly raising makes the limpers uncomfortable and unhappy. Being "good for the game" has significant meta-game benefits.

DrStrange

 

[philhut]

let them limp, wait and collect when opportune. The best lessons taught are paid for.

 

[Senzrock]

"Punishing the limpers" is exploitable and loses expected value. Some misguided villain deciding to relentlessly teach those limpers a lesson becomes my favorite sucker at the table, Much more so with < 100bb stacks. But even deeper, that player becomes my chief huckleberry. I might only get my hooks deep into his/her hide a couple of times a session. But value that comes from a limp/check - three bet strategy can be huge.

Hero should be thrilled to get the choice of limping speculative hands that benefit from high SPRs and raising premium hands for value. Why would anyone want to give up this opportunity?

It is worth noting that letting people limp way too often is good for the game. Relentlessly raising makes the limpers uncomfortable and unhappy. Being "good for the game" has significant meta-game benefits.

DrStrange

Respectfully, I would disagree with almost all of the above. Punishing the limpers is a catch phrase exactly because it is profitable. Make these players pay to be in a hand with you, specifically when you have position on them. Now doing it "relentlessly"? I don't know what that means exactly. You have to pick your spots just like everything else. I personally don't want to be limping in with 65s every time because those high SPR spots are often not going to go our way when we get the 654 flop and are up against villains 87 limp and we don't know what to do because no one at the table has a defined range so we end up making either huge mistakes or bizarre folds that cost us money in the long run.

In terms of making people happy... again, strong disagree here I'm afraid. In my opinion, execute a strong playing style at the tables and you can still keep people happy by being friendly and helpful at the table. That's what really keeps being happy. No one remembers the quiet guy who limp folds 90% of hands with the occasional limp-3bet sprinkled in, but everyone loves the aggressive player as long as they are a good time at the table. That's what actually makes the game fun in my opinion and actually leads fellow players to improve their game (and don't we want that for each other also at the end of the day?)

 

[Ben8257]

"Punishing the limpers" is exploitable and loses expected value. Some misguided villain deciding to relentlessly teach those limpers a lesson becomes my favorite sucker at the table, Much more so with < 100bb stacks. But even deeper, that player becomes my chief huckleberry. I might only get my hooks deep into his/her hide a couple of times a session. But value that comes from a limp/check - three bet strategy can be huge.

Hero should be thrilled to get the choice of limping speculative hands that benefit from high SPRs and raising premium hands for value. Why would anyone want to give up this opportunity?

It is worth noting that letting people limp way too often is good for the game. Relentlessly raising makes the limpers uncomfortable and unhappy. Being "good for the game" has significant meta-game benefits.

DrStrange

Ben book warning yall!! YEE BE Warned

Scott is pretty much the most intelligent poker player I have ever followed (I don't read pro books) why would I need to when this man gives amazing advice.

Anyone that knows me knows I am a tight player... if I raise everyone folds even if it's a 79 suited kind of hand (something to work with a d worth juicing the pot a bit) but then again when people get to know that about you absolutely you can use it to you advantage when need be. BUT also why should I give any info when I play in games that I know others are going to raise? Let them raise my premium hands, give them nothing and rake in all their efforts. Call me wrong, call me a bad player but but it works for me!

I shove all-in expecting an insta muck.

You totally missed,he didn't and won the hand. No I'm not calling your 3 Bet or even the Big Blind with 72o (except in jersey against @randy2310 sorry bro)

Not a pro here... but your C bet on the turn heads up... where is the equity here making it worth while to shove when you missed. This time the noob had your number. Just like Scott mentioned, stay aggressive, keep thinking you can push people around with your stack.

I was recently in a free,e out tourney. One player is betting every street, a well known member here is calling the whole way. Almost all in in the very first hand of a annual big game freeze out. The Dlop was 678 rainbow, J turn and 10 river. Other guy bets like 8k of his 15k starting stack. (Well known member tanks a couple minutes) calls, shows a pair of 5s and the other guy mucks, says I was bluffing.

You drove an hour, paid $120 buy in to a freeze out and going to die on an under pair to the board?? Said he could tell his hand was weak. What if the guy turns over 72 off? You are down to like 3k in a 15k game in the first hand! Too aggressive for me but hey... to each their own.

I absolutely respect the hell out of this Guy and I get the calls flopping open ended but tons of possibilities got there and you call with simply an under pair to the board? I will never forget that hand... he won, but did he play it right?

 

[Ben8257]

Respectfully, I would disagree with almost all of the above. Punishing the limpers is a catch phrase exactly because it is profitable. Make these players pay to be in a hand with you, specifically when you have position on them. Now doing it "relentlessly"? I don't know what that means exactly. You have to pick your spots just like everything else. I personally don't want to be limping in with 65s every time because those high SPR spots are often not going to go our way when we get the 654 flop and are up against villains 87 limp and we don't know what to do because no one at the table has a defined range so we end up making either huge mistakes or bizarre folds that cost us money in the long run.

In terms of making people happy... again, strong disagree here I'm afraid. In my opinion, execute a strong playing style at the tables and you can still keep people happy by being friendly and helpful at the table. That's what really keeps being happy. No one remembers the quiet guy who limp folds 90% of hands with the occasional limp-3bet sprinkled in, but everyone loves the aggressive player as long as they are a good time at the table. That's what actually makes the game fun in my opinion and actually leads fellow players to improve their game (and don't we want that for each other also at the end of the day?)

I don't play poker for income... it is leisure time for me... I would much rather sit back and play cards with friends that laught at Fart jokes and drink all night long than someone that just wants to stack everyone every hand. I DO remember the aggressive players that just say POT POT POT POT all night long... I usually try to find a different table next game. Lol

Again I am a bad poker player and you know it Max, but everything you disagree with in Scott's statement, I personally do agree with. Takes all types and still love ya bro, but again I'm happy at the kids table NOT playing $500 pots every hand!

 

[inthehiggs]

Ben book warning yall!! YEE BE Warned

Scott is pretty much the most intelligent poker player I have ever followed (I don't read pro books) why would I need to when this man gives amazing advice.

Anyone that knows me knows I am a tight player... if I raise everyone folds even if it's a 79 suited kind of hand (something to work with a d worth juicing the pot a bit) but then again when people get to know that about you absolutely you can use it to you advantage when need be. BUT also why should I give any info when I play in games that I know others are going to raise? Let them raise my premium hands, give them nothing and rake in all their efforts. Call me wrong, call me a bad player but but it works for me!


You totally missed,he didn't and won the hand. No I'm not calling your 3 Bet or even the Big Blind with 72o (except in jersey against @randy2310 sorry bro)

Not a pro here... but your C bet on the turn heads up... where is the equity here making it worth while to shove when you missed. This time the noob had your number. Just like Scott mentioned, stay aggressive, keep thinking you can push people around with your stack.

I was recently in a free,e out tourney. One player is betting every street, a well known member here is calling the whole way. Almost all in in the very first hand of a annual big game freeze out. The Dlop was 678 rainbow, J turn and 10 river. Other guy bets like 8k of his 15k starting stack. (Well known member tanks a couple minutes) calls, shows a pair of 5s and the other guy mucks, says I was bluffing.

You drove an hour, paid $120 buy in to a freeze out and going to die on an under pair to the board?? Said he could tell his hand was weak. What if the guy turns over 72 off? You are down to like 3k in a 15k game in the first hand! Too aggressive for me but hey... to each their own.

I absolutely respect the hell out of this Guy and I get the calls flopping open ended but tons of possibilities got there and you call with simply an under pair to the board? I will never forget that hand... he won, but did he play it right?

I’ve gotta say you both make some very good points. I will also note, this was in a really low stakes home cash game or I probably wouldn’t have attempted that. I’ve certainly also come a ways as a player since then too. Luckily it wasn’t an expensive lesson, but one I won’t forget.

It’s always interesting to see how different people approach situations. Makes me glad I pretty much stopped playing chess to play poker. So many more possibilities (and of course chips)

 

[Willpass]

Run your range through flopzilla against something they would limp with. See the odds and if the board is favorable to those odds, make them pay a heavy price for that limp.

 

[Senzrock]

I don't play poker for income... it is leisure time for me... I would much rather sit back and play cards with friends that laught at Fart jokes and drink all night long than someone that just wants to stack everyone every hand. I DO remember the aggressive players that just say POT POT POT POT all night long... I usually try to find a different table next game. Lol

Again I am a bad poker player and you know it Max, but everything you disagree with in Scott's statement, I personally do agree with. Takes all types and still love ya bro, but again I'm happy at the kids table NOT playing $500 pots every hand!

For sure bro, and listen, this game does have all types, that’s what makes it a great game. You can win or lose playing any style, that much is sure.

And again, to be clear, I’m not advocating a “pot pot pot” strategy, that sounds expensive and not very smart. What I would advocate for is to try and play an aggressive style where you are not allowing everyone to limp in front of you when holding a good hand (or even a fun hand like say JTs when you are in position). This doesn’t mean raising every hand, that’s silly but it does mean “punishing” for those players that do just wanna see every flop while having a beer - there’s nothing wrong with that.

Whenever I post in a strategy forum, my aim is always to give advise on one thing - what is the best (and in this game that, by definition means the most profitable), way to play a hand or the game overall. Joining the limpers party is not the way to do that, and I think we can be more aggressive while still having a good time and not having people think any less of us - that feels like a straw man argument. In fact, maybe it forces us to put even more effort into being friendly at the table, exactly because we after going after it! Nothing wrong with any of that.

Everyone plays poker for a different reason. Me personally, I play it for fun, but I’m also very competitive by nature so… I try to have fun while figuring out how to win what’s in the middle lol. At my first PCF meet up this meant that I shove my A3 of hearts right into my opponents AA - hey it happens lol.

 

[Colquhoun]

You want lots of limpers with a drawing hand (suited connectors, etc.).
You want less limpers with made, but vulnerable hands (pocket pairs, etc.)

 

[BPTDirector]

My advice would be for you to read Doyle Brunson’s Super System. Guaranteed to make a difference in your play and outcome.

 

[inthehiggs]

My advice would be for you to read Doyle Brunson’s Super System. Guaranteed to make a difference in your play and outcome.

Reminds me it’s about time to reread super system.. and 2 and ace on the River. That order always seems to work