Wynn Casino Tourney Set & Shipping Issues - Need Your Help (1 Viewer)

[RainmanTrail]

Cliff Notes: my Wynn chips arrived damaged due to poor packing from Danny, and this wasn't the first time I received damaged chips from him. I'm not happy with how he's handling it, and am looking for some advice. This also serves as a warning to others, and provides justification for why he will be receiving negative feedback from me.
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My Wynn Casino Tourney set arrived in the mail this week from noblecountydanny. Unfortunately, they did not arrive safely. After receiving the same advice from several well respected chippers here (all saying "you need to out him!"), I've decided to make a public post to ask for your help in resolving this matter.

A bit of background info is helpful here. I first bought a lot of chips from noblecountydanny a few months ago when I bought his Lion hotstamped Paulsons. When the chips arrived, I was absolutely flabbergasted by the terrible packing job, especially since they came from someone who has been around as long as he has, and who has probably shipped more chips than almost anyone else in the community. He literally put 4 racks of chips inside plastic Bud Jones racks, then placed those racks all inside of one padded envelope, and placed that envelope inside of an MFRB with absolutely no other padding inside the box at all. Needless to say, the chips were damaged during transit. 3 of the plastic racks were destroyed, and a couple of chips were broken, a couple more had chunks taken out of them, and several others had flea bites. I informed him of the damage and sent photos, but tried not to get upset about it. This was our exchange...

RainmanTrail: The chips arrived last night. Thanks for the quick shipping Danny! Unfortunately, one of the racks got destroyed in transit, and a couple chips were damaged, but nothing major. I think they probably would have survived if there was a little more padding inside the box. Don't worry, I'm not upset or anything, it's not a big deal, but just letting you know as an FYI for future shipments.

Thanks again,
Travis

Then I sent him this photo to show him some of the damage (if you look closely, you can see that the two chips in front are broken at the top, along with the obviously destroyed chip racks - two other racks were destroyed as well, but not pictured)...

noblecountydanny: Did you lose any chips?
noblecountydanny: I can pay for whatever is damaged or missing.

RainmanTrail: No, I've got all the chips. There are only a couple that got damaged, but it's minor damage. Just the plastic rack broke apart and some of the pieces from the rack look like they dug into the chips. They're still usable though.

RainmanTrail: Definitely not necessary. But thanks for the offer. I'm not worried about it at all

noblecountydanny: sorry I wont use racks again to ship

RainmanTrail: I think the racks actually work. It's just that since the box was heavy, it looks like someone might have dropped it at some point during transit. So if there was more cushion around the chips, it might have taken the blow better. But all in all, the chips are fine.

Note, this is my way of downplaying the issue. I wasn't seeking compensation at all. I just wanted to find a way to inform him that his shipping practices were insufficient for protecting chips in hopes that it would coerce him to add more protection in the future. As you will see, this did not work...

I didn't leave negative feedback because I didn't want to hamper his ability to sell chips for what I considered to be a simple careless mistake, and a correctable one at that.

Danny responded

noblecountydanny: thank you. Those old bud jones shipping racks are brittle. but you are right someone probably dropped it. I never use them and almost always use the paper boxes from paulson. But was out and thought you might like the BJ boxes. I store my Playboys in them. If I ever ship them again I probably would secure the boxes together in a cube and pad the shit out of them.

Encouraged by his promise to "pad the shit out of them", I ended up buying more chips from him about a month or so later. This time, they were Bud Jones and some pricy TRKs (many of which were for another chipper who lives close by). When the chips arrived, I was somewhat happy to see a little bit of padding in the box, but they were still HORRIBLY packed. He had hundreds of chips wrapped only in plastic wrap, all stacked on top of each other with no bubble wrap in the middle of the box with only padding around the sides of the box. My Bud Jones chips weren't damaged though, so I didn't make a big deal out of it. I asked the other chipper to inspect his TRKs, and later found out that some of them had gotten damaged (I'm not saying who it is because I don't want to bring anyone else into this).

Fast forward to my current purchase, and the reason for this post.

As many of you probably know, I recently purchased a large lot of very expensive chips from Danny; The Wynn Casino Tourney set. Many consider these to be the Holy Grail of tournament chips. Needless to say, I was a bit hesitant because of my previous shipping issues with Danny, but somehow I had convinced myself that this time, things would be different. I reasoned that this time since I'm purchasing almost $8k worth of chips, and them being a holy grail set, that he would go to great lengths to protect my chips. If there were ever a lot of chips that he would "pad the shit out of", then surely this would be them! - or so I thought.

I even sent out a preemptive strike, by reminding him of the damage from my previous shipments, practically begging for extra padding.

RainmanTrail: OK, sounds good. I assume this will be insured, correct?
Also, please, please put extra padding around the chips The last two lots I purchased from you both had very little padding, and the first one got damaged.

Thanks again!

noblecountydanny: Yes on both accounts

...then the chips arrived. I was so stoked to get these chips. However, the second I saw the boxes, I knew they had been damaged and could tell before I even opened the packages that there was going to be almost no padding inside. I couldn't believe it! Not only did he completely disregard my request, but this time the chips were packed EVEN WORSE than the previous two lots! Literally NO PROTECTION AT ALL!!!

Now, I was LIVID!!! I was patient, kind, and courteous before, probably too much so. But this time I had had enough. I just dropped almost $8k on these chips, and he didn't even give two fucks about my request for protecting them. In fact, it almost looked as though he INTENTIONALLY packed them poorly almost as a "fuck you" to my requests for careful packing. Not cool!

The boxes arrived and as I opened them up I see that he sent me almost 2000 chips inside of just two MFRB boxes with NO PADDING AT ALL other than just slamming as many chips as he could fit into the 3 padded envelopes, stacking them one on top of the other. He put 1000 chips in each MFRB box!! Inside the envelopes, the chips were loosely wrapped in plastic wrap in barrels of 50, each one wrapped end over end (not even rolled up to keep them tight). Each barrel was placed one right next to the others, all inside of a LOOSE bag (envelope) holding 350 chips per bag. The 3 bags were just laid into the box with ABSOLUTELY NO ADDITIONAL PROTECTION! The chips were free to move about inside their envelopes and the box, constantly rubbing against each other. Here are some photos of how they were packed.

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Needless to say, the chips were damaged. I found 5 completely broken chips so far, and about 20 with huge gouges/chunks out of them. There were also over 150 chips with new flea bites (mostly minor). There were hundreds of tiny chip flakes throughout the cellophane wrap from the poker chip mosh pit that transpired inside these boxes. He even managed to ruin a deck of cards, lol.

Here are a few pics showing some of the damage...

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I sent him a message two days ago expressing my frustrations. I attached photos of the damage shown above. I received no reply that day and no reply yesterday (even though he had logged in). He finally responded this morning. He didn't even apologize.

His reponse?

noblecountydanny: Send the entire set back and I will refund your money.
Danny ****
Address line 1
Address line 2

RainmanTrail: That's not the solution (nor the response) I was hoping for. I just spent almost $8k on this holy grail set, which you practically destroyed by your careless packaging, despite my numerous requests for a careful packaging job. I even sent you photos of the damage from your previous shipments so you'd understand where I was coming from. I was hoping to resolve this reasonably. I was kind, courteous, and understanding after you did this to my first two shipments. Try to put yourself in my shoes. How would you react if someone did this with your chips?

noblecountydanny: Send them back. I will refund your money. Its obvious that you are unhappy with the condition of the set.

Needless to say, I'm done buying chips from Danny, and I'm done being polite about it. I'm outing him here publicly, and am looking for advice from the community on how to handle this. I will probably be leaving him negative feedback for this transaction, as I feel that it is justified.

Note: I'm not sending them all back to him. That's not an option. No way in hell am I going to trust him with nearly $8k worth of merchandise again, and just cross my fingers that everything will go smoothly.

Most of these chips are still brand new, minty fresh, and the greatest tournament set ever, IMO. I'm going to keep a large set for myself, and will likely either raffle or auction off at least a single table tourney set of the chips which survived the poker chip mosh pit inside these boxes. I love these chips! I'm just not happy with how they were shipped, and how this was all handled.

The worst part is that there were exactly 200 of the rare white T5000 chips, and now two of them have been destroyed. How do you place a value on turning a rack of chips of this rarity and value into a partial rack of 98 chips? It's not just the value of those individual chips that are affected, but now my ability to sell any sets has also been affected as I can't just offer up 98 of these for sale and call it a "tourney set". The same goes with the other denoms, numerous yellow T1000s were destroyed as well.

What are your thoughts? Would you be as pissed off as I am about this?

 

[Chicken Rob]

I think his willingness to provide full refund gets him off the hook. As long as he's covering round trip shipping.

It is a shame to see these gorgeous chips destroyed.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Well, looks like the lawyers agree with me.

 

[SuckoutKing]

I stopped reading at the part. He replied send the chips back for a full refund. That's what I would do. To much money for damaged chips. Very sorry to hear things like this. Curious to hear from others with dealings with this seller.

 

[stocky]

I think his willingness to provide full refund gets him off the hook. As long as he's covering round trip shipping.

It is a shame to see these gorgeous chips destroyed.

Sort of agree. Sort of don't. If it was an easy to acquire set sure a refund is a great gesture. But as rare as these are its a different story imo.

Either way I hope it all gets sorted where both parties are happy and thanks @RainmanTrail for the heads up for future buyers.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I have to disagree with the viewpoint that all is cool because he offered to refund me only for a full return.

 

[RainmanTrail]

For me to pack them all back up and send them back to him, I would be taking on some serious risk. More risk than the damaged chips are worth.

As I stated in my post above, that's not an option, and it's not going to happen.

 

[David O]

I would agree with a full refund and shipping covered. This would be the same you would get if it were a retail sale. I agree it is a shame that the chips were damaged but I do think he has made a reasonable effort to correct the situation. What makes this a difficult situation is your love of the chips. I am the same way but sometimes we get so involved with "the love" of the chips we lose sight of the actual issue.

Just my opinion. Good luck!

 

[Chicken Rob]

For me to pack them all back up and send them back to him, I would be taking on some serious risk. More risk than the damaged chips are worth.

As I stated in my post above, that's not an option, and it's not going to happen.

IMO if you're unwilling to send them back for refund, and that's the only offer, you have to accept the damaged chips for $7800.

IMO also, you should be accepting no risk to return them. You should be refunded in full and the risk is on him.

 

[ChipEnvy]

For me to pack them all back up and send them back to him, I would be taking on some serious risk. More risk than the damaged chips are worth.

As I stated in my post above, that's not an option, and it's not going to happen.

I don't know what the answer is.

You obviously are keeping the chips. You outed the seller so his reputation has this on it. Nothing you can do about the chips, nothing he can do about your post.

So at this point you've said your piece and are keeping the chips. All you can do now is walk away with a grail type set and the knowledge you've warned others of his shipping practices.

 

[gopherblue]

Here are a few pics showing some of the damage...

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Well, at least now you have some sample sets! See...glass half full!

But in all seriousness, what @Chicken Rob said.

 

[BGinGA]

I dunno if offering a full refund gets the seller 'off the hook' so to speak, but his offer certainly makes you whole. Perhaps unhappy, but nonetheless, financially whole.

Two options -- send 'em back and get a full refund, or live with the damage. Your call.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I dunno if offering a full refund gets the seller 'off the hook' so to speak, but his offer certainly makes you whole. Perhaps unhappy, but nonetheless, financially whole.

Two options -- send 'em back and get a full refund, or live with the damage. Your call.

I meant gets him off the hook in fufilling his obligation in the transaction.

As for the crimes committed against such a gorgeous chip set, that is another issue entirely.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Thank you for the feedback. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree agree. Perhaps after I've cooled off a bit from being so frustrated by this, I might see your side of the argument. But for now at least, in my mind, he owes me a partial refund (even if small), and an apology.

Of course offering a full refund is AN acceptable solution if I were to agree to it, but it's not the optimal solution for me, and he's clearly handling this whole thing poorly

 

[Chicken Rob]

Thank you for the feedback. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree agree. Perhaps after I've cooled off a bit from being so frustrated by this, I might see your side of the argument. But for now at least, in my mind, he owes me a partial refund (even if small), and an apology.

Of course offering a full refund is AN acceptable solution if I were to agree to it, but it's not the optimal solution for me, and he's clearly handling this whole thing like a complete asshole.

I think offering a complete refund is all he is or should be obligated to do. No one is entitled to a partial refund.

As for his behavior, he's been disappointing, but not a complete asshole. I hope you can make this work for you since you're keeping the chips.

I know I will not be buying chips from him until he has a proven track record of better shipping.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I think offering a complete refund is all he is or should be obligated to do. No one is entitled to a partial refund.

As for his behavior, he's been disappointing, but not a complete asshole. I hope you can make this work for you since you're keeping the chips.

I know I will not be buying chips from him until he has a proven track record of better shipping.

Fair enough, I'll take back the "asshole" comment. But I'm definitely disappointed

 

[Joe Harris]

As for his behavior, he's been disappointing, but not a complete asshole.

I dunno, I find this situation sufficient to consider him an asshole. If you are willing to screw up a nice set of pristine rare casino Paulsons to save a bit of packing effort, not only are you disrespecting the collector who sent you $8k, but you are undermining the trust & mutual respect that makes the classifieds possible at a forum like PCF. There's a word for folks like that..

 

[jbutler]

Packing job is pretty shockingly bad - particularly given the value of the chips - but overall I agree with David and Rob that a refund is the route to your being made whole. It might not be your preferred route, but since it was offered, it does relieve Danny of having to make any other proposal.

I also agree with the above that it's extremely sad to think that there are now 198 5k chips rather than 200 and that the lost value in the now-partial rack is difficult to quantify, though that's another reason why a full refund is a good solution as it causes Danny to bear the loss of his poor shipping.

 

[Chicken Rob]

But make no mistake, my heart was broken seeing those damaged chip pics. Truly a loss to the chip world.

 

[jbutler]

But make no mistake, my heart was broken seeing those damaged chip pics. Truly a loss to the chip world.

And for no reason whatsoever. There is no excuse for poor shipping. There are several threads here and on CT that offer an idiot's guide to doing it right.

Sad!

 

[BGinGA]

FWIW, I've ordered several racks of high-end (and relatively rare) chips from Danny in the past, including a few transactions this year. All packages arrived safely with no damage, although I will note that his packing practices are definitely not up to my personal shipping standards (which are very high and create nearly bomb-proof packages). I reckon I was lucky.

I typically include very specific packing instructions for sellers that I have not used before. It seems to help with minimizing the risk of damage during transportation.

 

[bentax1978]

And for no reason whatsoever. There is no excuse for poor shipping. There are several threads here and on CT that offer an idiot's guide to doing it right.

Sad!

There's no excuse whatsoever in my mind. A couple weeks ago I had a friend in Toronto pick me up a couple racks of chips from a local classified ad on kijiji. This friend had never bought, sold, packed or played with a poker chip in his life. I sent him a link to tommy's how-to-ship chips thread. He read it, packed the chips appropriately, and everything arrived in perfect condition.

Here we have a case where the shipper is very experienced chipper. A case where the chips are of very high value and rarity. A case where the buyer explicitly and repeatedly asked that the chips be well protected during shipment. If I were the buyer, I would be livid too. I'm just an observer and I still find myself upset about what happened, and I have absolutely no stake in the actual transaction.

I realize that a full refund, including the cost of shipping them back fully insured, makes the buyer whole from a financial point of view. And while it might get the seller off the hook financially, I completely empathize with the buyer given the circumstances and would be just as upset and unhappy with the situation if I were him.

 

[gopherblue]

Sad!

Well, now you're channeling Trump.

 

[jbutler]

Well, now you're channeling Trump.

To destroy your enemy you must find him, face him, and then...become him. John Travolta, Face/Off

 

[jemfernandez]

Personally I think the offer for a full refund was good but also would agree that an offer for a partial refund for Rainman's loss on these chips is also fair. After all The seller did offer a partial refund before l, albeit for different chips.

noblecountydanny: Did you lose any chips?
noblecountydanny: I can pay for whatever is damaged or missing.

The difficulty would be trying to come up with an acceptable amount IMO.

 

[David O]

Man it is easy to dislike someone on the internet because we have a preconceived view of that person through their previous posts. Let's not send out the group with torches just yet. I do not personally know @noblecountydanny but I do know he has always been upfront and honest in his dealings. We do not know his side of the story and I guess it really is not our business and should remain with he and @RainmanTrail.

I agree that the thought of the chips being destroyed is horrible and cannot be taken back but we do not know why they were packaged the way they were. Maybe he has things going on in his life that we are not aware of and things he is keeping personal. Maybe he felt that was a good package job. In fact I received chips in much the same manner from Jim at The Chiproom when I ordered all of the Point Defiance chips. They did not come in a box they came in Flat Rate Bubble mailer.

I am not trying to justify what has happened just we all need to step back sometimes and look at the whole situation. Chips will come and go but friends and communities will hopefully grow and thrive

Hell, if I took my first impression of @BGinGA and stuck with it I probably would never chat with him. I had the pleasure of meeting him at The Shootout at the Post and found he and his wife are "Salt of the Earth" and the type of people that help you if they can and sometimes even if they cannot. I found this to be true with everyone that I met that weekend and only strengthens my thoughts about and friendships with the great folks here.

Sad day for the chips though and I hope you both come to a resolution that is right for both parties.

Chip on!
David O

 

[ssanel54]

Ive also bought thousands of Chips from Danny in the past and have had no issues. Like BGinga said, not the best packing, but definitely not the worst I have received. I wonder if those Wynn Chips are more fragile than others?

@RainmanTrail - I did not see anywhere in your dialog where you discussed a partial refund? Did you ask for one and he said No?

 

[legend672]

Ive also bought thousands of Chips from Danny in the past and have had no issues. Like BGinga said, not the best packing, but definitely not the worst I have received. I wonder if those Wynn Chips are more fragile than others?

@RainmanTrail - I did not see anywhere in your dialog where you discussed a partial refund? Did you ask for one and he said No?

Hey Scott ! How you been man ? Hope all is well.

There is no excuse for poor packing like that except laziness or drunk shipping. Noel taught me to pack em like that gorilla from the samsonite commercial was gonna be the mail handler

 

[David O]

Sample sets on eBay!

 

[ssanel54]

Hey Scott ! How you been man ? Hope all is well.

There is no excuse for poor packing like that except laziness or drunk shipping. Noel taught me to pack em like that gorilla from the samsonite commercial was gonna be the mail handler

Been Great.

I miss the good old days when you could get all the chips you wanted from Noels or Legend, and no shipping required.