Tourney WSOP structure and chip breakdown (1 Viewer)

Wils

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Hi

I was thinking of using the WSOP ME blind structure (with a few earlier levels added on) and also their chip breakdown (except just 10k).

Initial levels would look like this:

1: 25 - 50
2: 25 - 75
3:50 - 100
4: 75 - 150 (from here on it's WSOP structure)

There will be no antes in this game, just blinds.

The WSOP ME chip breakdown for their previous 30k games was:

25 x8
100 x8
500 x4
1000 x7
5000 x4
Total 30,000

For my game, if I follow the WSOP standard, it'll be:
25 x8
100 x8
500 x4
1000 x7
Total 10,000


So here's my question: Is having just eight 25 and 100 chips each enough? I feel like it should be 12 of each, as eight seems too few, but if that's the way they do it in the Main Event, it's gotta be workable, right? Taking into account the WSOP ME uses ante's and I don't, shouldn't eight be enough?

Just eager not to have too much change-making in the game.
 
8 is fine, 12 is better. just my 2¢.

What he said.

We're chippers, so moar chips is always better! In reality, though, 8x 25 is plenty... and on a 9 player table you'd have 72x T25s which is really more than enough. But more chips is just more fun, so why not go with 12x? :)
 
It sounds perverse, I know, but I'm trying to find the "optimal" as in "least" chips per person without causing issues (the idea being that the less chips I use, the more players I can accommodate (should that ever need to happen)).

I like little experiments - that said, I'm asking here because I don't like experiments that cause players to think, "this is a drag."
 
8 works, depending on your players it can result in more change being made as opposed to 12. I plan my tournament sets to run with 8/8/x/x as a minimum and 12/12/x/x as preferred. I think you can't judge totally by the WSOP as they have enormous fields and can't afford to use "moar" chips than necessary.
 
I dug up the info below from a previous post of mine. I did find a WSOP event use a 12/12 starting stack breakdown for the T25 and T100 chips instead of 8/8. I've even played a 10-table tournament at Venetian, where there were only four T25 chips in the starting stack, but I think the blinds started higher, like at 50/100, then went to 75/150. For a home tourney, I'd probably prefer a 12/12 breakdown, which reduces the change making by players, but I play in a single table home tournament with an 8/8/x/x breakdown that works for everyone, so 8/8 is fine.

>>>
Here are some breakdowns from WSOP events -- they use fewer T500 chips in starting stacks, but may use T500s to color up T25 and T100.
- past WSOP 30k starting stack - 8,8,2,8,4
- another WSOP 30k starting stack - 12,12,3,12,3
- WSOP ME 2016 - 50k starting stack - 8/8/2/8/8 (pic)

If you run tournaments with multiple tables, but don't have quite enough chips to give everyone 12/12, you could make some starting stacks with 8/8 and some with 12/12. Otherwise, an 8/8 breakdown would be the minimum I'd go with, especially with blinds starting at 25/50.
 
I think you can't judge totally by the WSOP as they have enormous fields and can't afford to use "moar" chips than necessary.

I thought that might be the case, but the flip side of that is, can they afford to p*ss off $10k-entrance fee-paying punters with a less than optimum experience?
 
Shrug... I've played plenty of casino tournaments where they start with 4 T25 and four T100 and it's rarely an issue. As long as your guys aren't the type who call 350 with a T500 and feel like they have to take their change out immediately instead of leaving the chip there until action is complete making change is not a big deal. As a side note, having played in a good many PCF tournaments, many chippers are just as guilty of immediately making their own change as everyday Joes in your home game are :D ;)
 
FWIW, I really think 12x is almost "too many" and that the 8x is closer to that "optimal" goal you are striving for.

By the time I get to my 2nd break - which is where I remove the T25s - having 108 of them on the table is just friggin annoying. And there's usually one guy with 3 or 4 barrels of them in front of him, and they are just taking up space, or end up being obstacles to betting larger amounts.

upload_2017-7-5_9-55-59.png


I guess it depends on your level structure, and how soon you color up, but I have actually been thinking of switching to an 8/13/x/x starting stack for my T10ks, just because the T25s end up being such a hassle later on. Having that many greens on the table 4 hours in is just annoying.
 
8 is fine, 12 is better. just my 2¢.

I would have disagreed with this, but I just played a T10k (with antes) that started with 8/8/x/x. I was surprised that there was not more change needed, but it never really felt short (even when everyone was kicking in T25's into an ante and the winner of the hand would get 9xT25 in just the antes).

As @Ronoh said, as long as players can leave their chips in place and make change after the action, 8/8/x/x is fine. I must admit, I am intrigued by @justsomedude's 8/13/x/x suggestion.
 
8 is fine, 12 is better. just my 2¢.
And 10 is jussst righhht...... said Goldilocks. :)

Personally, I think 10 chips per player of the lowest denomination(s) is plenty, for a single- or two-table event.. Eight is a tad short, but playable - and becomes less of an issue as more tables are in play. 12 works fine, but amounts higher than those can quickly get unwieldy. However, structures with antes work much better with larger numbers in play.

I use 10x for 1-base and 5-base structures, 12x for 25-base structures, unless the field is huge or the set size will only support 8x.
 
Well, since you're experimenting, how about a 2k chip instead of 1000/5000? Or maybe T5 instead of T25?

Yeah I was toying with that idea, maybe get some Gear Labels made up. My real issue with that is that if you go down that road, you've got to change all the higher denoms too if you want consistency

i.e. 25, 100, 500, 2000, 10000, 50000, 250000

If you don't, you get 25, 100, 500, 2000, then either 5000 or 25000 (I'm using a CPS set)...
 
The lowest denom will also depend on your players. If you have a lot of limpers in the early levels, you are going to be making a lot of change. Sure, it's doable, but not optimal.

While 12 x T25s is better, I will put out 16 x T25s when the set will support it.
  • Players that limp a lot like to play with big stacks of chips too. They feel like they're going broke when they run out of their lowest chips, even though they're still sitting on 90% of their stack. Keep them happy - give them big stacks.
  • More chips! (y) :thumbsup:
  • Coloring up is easy. Really. In time you can cut out a barrel into 5s and restack it quickly into a barrel. You can also fill racks for quick counting.
  • Smallest denom gets colored up during the 1st break. By the time barrels of chips could become unwieldy, they're gone.
The WSOP does not care about delivering an optimal experience. Get that out of your head. They care about profits. They're a buisness. They are selling you dreams - a dream at the most coveted title in poker, a dream of besting thousands of competitors, the dream of winning a multi-million dollar prize. They are not selling you an optimal experience, or clean chips, or comfortable seating, or enough restrooms, or a comfortable chair.
 
The WSOP does not care about delivering an optimal experience. Get that out of your head. They care about profits. They're a buisness. They are selling you dreams - a dream at the most coveted title in poker, a dream of besting thousands of competitors, the dream of winning a multi-million dollar prize. They are not selling you an optimal experience, or clean chips, or comfortable seating, or enough restrooms, or a comfortable chair.

Waaah! Not listening!

But excellent points otherwise (before I put my hands over my ears).
 
The WSOP does not care about delivering an optimal experience. Get that out of your head. They care about profits. They're a buisness. They are selling you dreams - a dream at the most coveted title in poker, a dream of besting thousands of competitors, the dream of winning a multi-million dollar prize. They are not selling you an optimal experience, or clean chips, or comfortable seating, or enough restrooms, or a comfortable chair.
Or breathable air.
 
Ok on a different but related point:

a 10k stack
12x 25
12x 100
7x 1000

Is 3x 500 just a smidgin too few?

NB If I was going for fewer 25's and hundos:
8x 25
8x100
4x 500 (seems about right)
7x 1000

For someone quite brainless, I'm not sure how I end up overthinking everything.
 
When our group started playing a lot of tournaments, I duplicated the WSOP when it was 12/7/2/3/1 and later 8/8/2/3/1, in part because it's the WSOP and easy to follow. I've played in games where there were only 4 of the lowest denoms. More recently I've been using 16/16. I've recently concluded that's probably too many. It seems like there is just as much if not more change making, which seems counter-intuitive. Just based on observation, I think more change might be made because players have so many of the lower chips they over use them, and of course someone winds up with most of them by winning a couple of hands and then playing higher value chips. I tend to bet using bigger chips, so I frequently am the "bank" to get change from in the smaller denoms.

What I've recently gone to is 12/12. What I don't like about that is my set was designed for up to 40, optimally for 30, and with 12-20 players, that is a lot of chips not being used. Thus I either set aside a large, unused reserve, or I rotate after tournaments (which is what I do). I use 4x25 boxes of starting chips where a box has the chips for 2 players. I had 10, thus the lower values chips were all in use. Now I have 15 boxes with 5 in reserve every time. My boxes are numbered, so whatever month it is, I start with the box number of that month and use the next 10. As I have 2 sets of tournament chips I use, most of my chips will be played with 3-4 times a year. Part of me feels like that's a waste, but simplicity of game management counts too.

Like BG, I think 10 is about the optimal number of lower denoms, but that makes for odd chip stacks. I think 8 is workable, but 12 is better. Outside of that range, it's either not enough or too many. Yes, some players like having a mountain of chips. Like Zombie, I'd prefer to accommodate them and I generally have the chips to do it. But I think it slows the game down a bit. Zombie is right that color ups are pretty quick, even with large numbers. I tend to stack my chips in 10s. Even with 25s I don't find that hard -- 2 stacks is 500, 4 is 1000. Colors ups just take, with a table of 10, 2-3 minutes, and if you color up 2 at once, 2-4 minutes. If I'm out of the hand before color ups, I start that process while the last hand is in progress. I don't interfere with the hand in progress. Sometimes the player on either side of me is in the hand, and I can't really do anyone other than me until it's over. As we color up, we give them the highest value chips, and encourage them giving a chip or two of the next chip not being colored up to get higher value chips on the table.

What would discourage me the most from more than 12 per player for the players you are planning for is that if you color up the lowest denom, and certainly by the second lowest, half of your chips are gone. Thus you are buying a lot of chips that will see limited use.

Every game is going to have some change making. How much is too much can be hard to determine. I think most of us have our own (probably unidentifiable) standard and when it exceeds that, it's too much. Two players can sit in the same exact game and one thinks it's too much, another isn't bothered by it at all.

What I've learned trying to duplicate the WSOP (or other tournaments at casinos): Zombie hit the nail on the head! They are NOT trying to provide a good experience to you! They are inviting you to invest in your dream. They accommodate that dream by them making money. It makes no sense for the WSOP to buy more lower chips than are necessary. Their structure is suited to their needs, not what makes the best tournament. Most who play in it, or any casino tournament for that matter, don't really about the tournament's structure. I have 2 casinos about an hour away. I have players who much prefer my structure to theirs. Mine is meant to make for a good experience for players. I don't have professional dealers, real tables, or a lot of other things casinos do have. However, I can make the poker playing a better experience for players pretty easily.

Conclusion: Use those tournaments as a guide, but not a how to. If you are running a for profit business, duplicate what they do because they are profitable (or they would no longer be in business!). Otherwise, make it a better experience for players precisely because that can be your focus. For example, if you want the WSOP 30K structure, I wouldn't generally have 2/3 of the chip value in the highest chip. More than half the value in the highest chip is not that good, but I will say that 10K each in lower value chips should be workable if the highest starting chip is 5,000.
 
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Great post Texrex. Originally thought if the WSOP ME was doing it it must be optimal you made some great points.
 

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