Would you speak up, or every man for himself? (1 Viewer)

[grebe]

Hypothetically speaking, would you speak up if you saw this happen in a game you were playing in (NOT the host):

Bet/call happens on river, so it's showdown....no further action to be had. V1 says something to the effect of "I have 2 pair" but does not make an effort to show his cards. V2 starts to muck hand. Do you speak up?

Does it matter if this is a home game versus a casino?

 

[Eloe2000]

I wouldn’t say anything at a casino for sure. I probably wouldnt say anything at a home game either at that moment but if I started to sense that some was angle shooting at my game then yes we would have some words. After the hand was over I may say something to V2 like “you paid for the river, make V1 show us his cards”.

 

[303Mike]

“Show ‘em”
Hell yeah you speak up.

 

[ekricket]

Yes speak up. It’s little shit like this that destroys a game. Rules are not there to limit you, they are there to help everyone negotiate a contest fairly.

 

[wolfpack]

If I am in the game home or casino then speak up. If not in the game I probably don’t right then but would tell v2 to the side you paid guy has to show

 

[Pinesol13]

I wouldn’t say anything at a casino for sure. I probably wouldnt say anything at a home game either at that moment but if I started to sense that some was angle shooting at my game then yes we would have some words. After the hand was over I may say something to V2 like “you paid for the river, make V1 show us his cards”.

My thoughts exactly.

It does depend on the specific situation. I've definitely mucked my cards before officially seeing the opponents because I knew I was beat when he called my big bluffy river bet and I'm playing the board.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I only speak up if someone has TABLED a winner and the pot is going to be awarded incorrectly.

If someone hasn't tabled their hand and chooses to muck the winner, that's on them

 

[grebe]

My thoughts exactly.

It does depend on the specific situation. I've definitely mucked my cards before officially seeing the opponents because I knew I was beat when he called my big bluffy river bet and I'm playing the board.

This is backwards. If someone gets called and announces his hand without showing....and the other player is going to muck. I get where you are coming from. Bluffing is not an angle shoot. Misrepresenting a hand at showdown is.

 

[Geremie]

Simple way to fix - change the rules to all players involved in a showdown must show all cards.

It eliminates all the bullshit, angles, etc. Flip the cards over, award the pot, done.

 

[rowlin]

<Edited to withdraw question after reading OP more carefully.>

 

[upNdown]

Unless you have reason to believe that V2 is angling here (and I’m not sure how you could) then there’s nothing to say, at this point.
So no, I definitely wouldn’t speak up in a casino. In a home game, if I thought V1 was the sort of new player who needed help, maybe, but probably not even then.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I have seen something like this happen where a player declares 2 pair (there is a pair on the board) and the other player mucks a better 2 pair because they didn’t realize the pair on the board. If the person doing it is a known angle shooter I’m definitely going to say something in a home game. Casino I’ll say something to the other player on the side.

 

[jpietrella]

If I'm at the casino I keep my mouth shut unless I'm in the hand. I'm not there to make friends or help anyone and it's the dealer's responsibility to call the action and manage the game.

If I'm at a home game with friends, I absolutely speak up.

 

[ekricket]

I have seen something like this happen where a player declares 2 pair (there is a pair on the board) and the other player mucks a better 2 pair because they didn’t realize the pair on the board. If the person doing it is a known angle shooter I’m definitely going to say something in a home game. Casino I’ll say something to the other player on the side.

This happened first time I was in a casino. I had pocket 10’s and the board paired some 4’s or 5’s, but I was concentrated on my 10’s holding. At showdown the villain said “two pair” and held his cards. I almost mucked but it was how he held his cards that red flagged me. I said two pair too and made him finally show and he had 6’s.

 

[ekricket]

In our home game, if I’m dealing and the winner only shows one card I start pushing the pot to the loser. After a couple of consternation’s and explanations, they realize it takes two face up cards to win.

The hilarious part in a home game is that no one wants to show “too much information”.
I got news for you, your home game buddies that you’ve been playing with for years don’t need any more information about how you play cards.

 

[jpietrella]

If I'm at the casino I keep my mouth shut unless I'm in the hand. I'm not there to make friends or help anyone and it's the dealer's responsibility to call the action and manage the game.

If I'm at a home game with friends, I absolutely speak up.

Also, that being said - If I'm at the casino and someone does something like shows 1 card at showdown, or announces their hand without showing - If I'm having a losing session or just generally in a grumpy mood, I'll more than likely make some out-loud comments about slowing down the game and/or needing to show 2 cards to win. If I want to throw someone off or get under their skin, I'll absolutely make some noise about this.

 

[Legend5555]

I let it go unless it's a pattern. I'm not going to force people to show obvious losers if they don't want to. But like I said, if it becomes a pattern and causes the game to slow down or get confusing, then I'm telling the last aggressive action to show their hand.

 

[TeamNapoli]

There are two types of home games: one where its more serious and the play is for money so in this type i would tell the person after the play you should have demanded to see his cards, in a friendly game where its more social and the play is 25c 50c blinds and there are newbies playing I speak up at the point so the newbies learn.

Being cut at the knees is common bs play in NJ casinos. If a player makes a bet or raise at showdown and i make the call even If i happen to show first i demand the player show his cards even if I beat him. I paid so i want to see. Only at the Borgata and it happened 2 different times i am told a player can forfeit his cards at any time and does not need to show. The final better has to show first but if i elect to show my cards first then he can muck his cards

 

[JustinInMN]

It's hard, in the moment, I think you have to let it go or else you are influencing a player's decision to table a hand, which is a violation of one player per hand.

After the fact, I might just say to that player "if you are in a pot with me you are going to have to prove it" to make my point to him and alert everyone else.

 

[JustinInMN]

If i happen to show first i demand the player show his cards even if I beat him. I paid so i want to see. Only at the Borgata and it happened 2 different times i am told a player can forfeit his cards at any time and does not need to show. The final better has to show first but if i elect to show my cards first then he can muck his cards

So always wait to show, if he doesn't want to table his hand in turn, let him muck and save you from tabling.

If a player is stalling after I make this call, I will just ask if he's "showing or dropping?"

 

[JustinInMN]

The hilarious part in a home game is that no one wants to show “too much information”.
I got news for you, your home game buddies that you’ve been playing with for years don’t need any more information about how you play cards.

So this!

 

[wolfpack]

If I Had last action on the river my cards don’t move until the other guys are flipped or in the muck I don’t care how confident I am that I won or lost

 

[Nanook]

I have seen something like this happen where a player declares 2 pair (there is a pair on the board) and the other player mucks a better 2 pair because they didn’t realize the pair on the board. If the person doing it is a known angle shooter I’m definitely going to say something in a home game. Casino I’ll say something to the other player on the side.

This happens all the time and the guys doing it know exactly what they are doing and what they are hoping to have happen

If I'm at the casino I keep my mouth shut unless I'm in the hand. I'm not there to make friends or help anyone and it's the dealer's responsibility to call the action and manage the game.

If I'm at a home game with friends, I absolutely speak up.

Yea, it is an angle shoot, but at the same time everyone needs to read their own hand and play as they see fit.

It's hard, in the moment, I think you have to let it go or else you are influencing a player's decision to table a hand, which is a violation of one player per hand.

After the fact, I might just say to that player "if you are in a pot with me you are going to have to prove it" to make my point to him and alert everyone else.

this is exactly the reason that you really shouldn't say anything during the hand. There are other situations where it may not even be a questionable situation but you influence the way the pot gets pushed and that isn't fair to the guy that may have had the pot pushed his way and now it is going somewhere else

 

[Nanook]

If I Had last action on the river my cards don’t move until the other guys are flipped or in the muck I don’t care how confident I am that I won or lost

this is wisdom spoken from experience.

 

[303Mike]

What is an “angle shooter”

 

[Frogzilla]

This is backwards. If someone gets called and announces his hand without showing....and the other player is going to muck. I get where you are coming from. Bluffing is not an angle shoot. Misrepresenting a hand at showdown is.

The “two pair” (like when you hold pocket 5s on 3378Q) is deceptive but not quite misrepresenting

 

[JustinInMN]

What is an “angle shooter”

Someone that tries to bend rules for personal favor.

 

[jpietrella]

What is an “angle shooter”

In general, it's someone who does something that may technically not be against the rules of the game but is considered unethical because they're taking advantage of another player or a given situation.

 

[grebe]

The “two pair” (like when you hold pocket 5s on 3378Q) is deceptive but not quite misrepresenting

In that case no. But, there are situations where this happens and he doesnt even have the other pair....so then he is. If he is forced to show, he says "ahh, I thought I had a 7" or whatever bs.

 

[SiouxperStack]

If I’m not involved in the hand I stay out of it.
I can recall a time I had AA vs QQ and the board ran out with 4 spades which I had none. I tabled my hand and she nodded in disgust, admitting defeat, she’s about to muck then some hero across the table yells at her to flip her cards over so she does and realizes she holds the winner, with her Q of spades, after the dealer points it out. She won a nice $500 pot and left two hands later. Lol