Would you allow this kind of bet? (1 Viewer)

Would you allow this kind of bet?

  • Yes--intent is clear, and the bet is allowable

  • Yes, but only if bet amount is stated first

  • No.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Beakertwang

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We had two players in last weekend's game who would bet in a way that I think is questionable. It doesn't bother me terribly, since they do it the same way every time, but I think I'd prefer if it wasn't allowed.

How it basically happens is as follows:
Suppose they were going to bet 300. Without announcing a bet amount, they would grab a stack of hundreds, carry them out into the betting area, and drop three chips off the bottom of the stack, then pull the remaining chips back. The full stack never leaves their hand or touches the felt.

Would you allow it?
 
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As someone who really learned to play in Vegas this is nearly always allowable and pretty standard. My local poker room rules any chips passed the line are part of the bet which I still haven't gotten used to. Unless angles are being shot I dont see a problem with it.

Anyone who has or does play a lot of limit poker is probably used to this.
 
What if the other player in the hand snap calls as the chips are still in his hand? I dont like this kind of betting.

Snap calls are for whatever chips a player drops, calling before a bet is made is not advisable. I have see people go mad over this at the Bellagio, but the rule is dropped chips, not chips in hand over the line.
 
We had two players in last weekend's game who would bet in a way that I think is questionable. It doesn't bother me terribly, since they do it the same way every time, but I think I'd prefer if it wasn't allowed.

How it basically happens is as follows:
Suppose they were going to bet 300. Without announcing a bet amount, they would grab a stack of hundreds, carry them out into the betting area, and drop three chips off the bottom of the stack, then pull the remaining chips back. The full stack neverleaves their hand or touches the felt.

Would you allow it?

What if he actually drops all 20 of the 100 chips and then says oops I only meant to bet 300. How would you rule that? I say it's a $2,000 bet at that point
 
What if he actually drops all 20 of the 100 chips and then says oops I only meant to bet 300. How would you rule that? I say it's a $2,000 bet at that point

That's a great point. It's worth doing away with the practice, just due to the unnecessary potential for confusion.

And just to clarify, these were tourney chips, in a $10 buy-in game.
 
I have an almost unbounded willingness to let players bet what they want. I have little tolerance for angle shooting, though. I don't like betting lines. I don't like forward motion rules. I do like teaching players saying what you intend to do will prevent all sorts of trouble. We aren't playing chess with finger fault rules (once you touch a piece, you have to move it.)

It is quite rare for the typical player in my games to intend to misbehave. All sorts of irregular stuff happens, but no one is planning on gaining an edge. They might not be paying attention and act out of turn. They "call your bet and raise you". They make sloppy bet/raises without saying what they intended. And yes, they pick up a handful of chips and only deposit a couple to call or bet/raise.

Most of the times, the "rules" end up favoring the angle shooters at the expense of the novices and weak players. That is bad for the game. It also isn't right. So most of the "rule" violations in my game end up with a warning and an explanation for why things should be done "properly". Eventually we get the regulars to know proper betting methods. Almost no one calls then raises anymore and we would actually call that a disallowed string bet for a regular, but not for a new-to-the-game visitor.

In a casino game, you need a harsh set of rules to deal with angle shooting and trickery. The casino doesn't care if the stupid tourist gets screwed - lots more suckers where that one came from. The betting rules do not have to be so harsh in a home game. Sure, we want a fair and proper game. And we don't want angle shooting. Let the host ask questions about unclear bets. Give the newer players lessons in proper procedures. Basically let players bet what they want.

One set in stone rule - - what you say is binding and takes preference over what you physically do. Even there we have questions arise when players use one of the "magic words" not intending to act. ( for example, "let me check for a spade" means they want to look in their hand before deciding what to do)

Bottom line, do what is best for the game which generally means catering to new players and weak players -=- DrStrange
 
I don't like it. I think it's sloppy, reckless, and potentially angle-shooty. That sort of thing is why I favor a foward motion rule or a betting line - either whatever goes forward or whatever crosses the line is your bet.
 
I hate this type of betting, but most casinos allow it. I would love for someone to challenge the bet as soon the first chip touches the felt that any other chips are now a string bet.

Some casinos use a strict (I think Rivers in Pittsburg) “one cut” rule when bringing a stack of chips into the pot area. That means as soon as you cut any amount say 5 $5 chips from 20 chip stack, your bet is $25. I like the rule as it stops people from being able to slowly cut chips to see if gets reaction from an opponent.
 
Not a fan, but I would allow it at my house (I would tell the person that it's not a good idea though)
 
You can't stress enough the importance of binding verbal statements for the health and integrity of a game.
If any player does anything without stating it, he should get a strict question by the dealer "what are you doing now?".
 
This happened at the wsop in 2008.


No I don't think it's the same thing as you are decribing since the chips are in hand. What Losev did was without chips in hand but sliding a stack in the pot.

So I voted allowable because they aren't released from the hand. But I think you have some discretion here.
 
You can't stress enough the importance of binding verbal statements for the health and integrity of a game.
If any player does anything without stating it, he should get a strict question by the dealer "what are you doing now?".
No.
You can play the game in silence. You can play the game without speaking the language of the table.
I agree that verbal statements should always be binding, and it's a good idea to make them - they've saved my ass before. But they aren't necessary.
 
So just took a peek at Robert's rules for home games.

http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRulesHome.htm

The applicable rules are under section 3 under the "betting and raising" subheader.

8 says verbal action before chips always takes precedence (+1 @DrStrange)

12 says releasing chips in the pot constitutes a bet.

So I would say only the dropped chips constitute release as described but everything in hand is not really released.

However, I think they made the wrong ruling in Losev's case because he slid the stack without the chips ever being in hand. So my argument is the line is drawn between the original post as described being okay and what Losev did as being wrong.
 
Not necessary? I don't know.
For sure, they 're making the game a lot safer and easier especially among less experienced players.
 
Not necessary? I don't know.
For sure, they 're making the game a lot safer and easier especially among less experienced players.
When I was a less experienced play, I was terrified of speaking, for fear I'd give away tells - I was thrilled to be able to play in silence.
 
As I have thought about it, there are several risks for confusion I see with that sort of move:
-the bettor dropping the wrong number of chips
-the bettor having a dirty stack, and accidentally dropping a 500, or other denom chip.
-an over-eager player with a big hand making a snap call before any chips are released, thinking the entire stack is the bet. This is the least likely, but still a possibility.

I think I'll discourage it, but allow it admin long as the amount is stated in advance.
 
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As I have thought about it, there are several risks for confusion I see with that sort of move:
-the bettor dropping the wrong number of chips
-the bettor having a dirtying stack, and accidentally dropping a 500
-an over-eager player with a big hand making a snap call before any chips are released, thinking the entire stack is the bet. This is the least likely, but still a possibility.

I think I'll discourage it, but allow it admin long as the amount Ian stated in advance.

I think that's a reasonable approach and I think it's fair for players to assume the risks you described as well by betting in this method.
 
I have an almost unbounded willingness to let players bet what they want. I have little tolerance for angle shooting, though. I don't like betting lines. I don't like forward motion rules. I do like teaching players saying what you intend to do will prevent all sorts of trouble. We aren't playing chess with finger fault rules (once you touch a piece, you have to move it.)

It is quite rare for the typical player in my games to intend to misbehave. All sorts of irregular stuff happens, but no one is planning on gaining an edge. They might not be paying attention and act out of turn. They "call your bet and raise you". They make sloppy bet/raises without saying what they intended. And yes, they pick up a handful of chips and only deposit a couple to call or bet/raise.

Most of the times, the "rules" end up favoring the angle shooters at the expense of the novices and weak players. That is bad for the game. It also isn't right. So most of the "rule" violations in my game end up with a warning and an explanation for why things should be done "properly". Eventually we get the regulars to know proper betting methods. Almost no one calls then raises anymore and we would actually call that a disallowed string bet for a regular, but not for a new-to-the-game visitor.

In a casino game, you need a harsh set of rules to deal with angle shooting and trickery. The casino doesn't care if the stupid tourist gets screwed - lots more suckers where that one came from. The betting rules do not have to be so harsh in a home game. Sure, we want a fair and proper game. And we don't want angle shooting. Let the host ask questions about unclear bets. Give the newer players lessons in proper procedures. Basically let players bet what they want.

One set in stone rule - - what you say is binding and takes preference over what you physically do. Even there we have questions arise when players use one of the "magic words" not intending to act. ( for example, "let me check for a spade" means they want to look in their hand before deciding what to do)

Bottom line, do what is best for the game which generally means catering to new players and weak players -=- DrStrange

This is exactly what I would have said if the good Doc didn't beat me to it.

Most of the time I allow players to do what they intend, especially if they're new to my game or poker in general. Intentional angle-shooting is pretty much unheard of in my games, so I'm very permissive but also try to educate. In these situations I usually find myself saying, "What did you mean to do? Okay, that's the action, but this is what would have happened in a casino..."

Most players pick up on the correct way of doing things pretty quickly. For those who don't, it's not that big a deal. It's a low stakes home game, everybody is having fun, and casuals gonna casual. :)
 
While not the best method, there is no bet until chips are released.
For the sake of completeness, here is the TDa rules(Rule 40) to cover the situation.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2e6qmif7...ker+TDA+Rules+Version+3.0+Longform+Final.docx

"Pushing chips in the pot" is the standard here. I don't think the person described in the op did that.
Many years ago, I was playing in a particular mid-stakes home-game tournament for the first time. About a half-hour into the event, I picked up pocket aces in late position; the guy to my left was the only caller (he had been quite aggressive so far). Flop was AA5, I checked, he grabbed both of his stacks by the sides/backs and pushed them at least 6-8 inches forward. As soon as his forward motion stopped, I announced "call" and flipped over my hand (with quads). He looked at me, dragged his chips back, and said, "I never made a bet."

Because his hands never stopped touching the chips (they never left the table surface, since they were pushed), it was ruled that he had not 'released' them, and hence no bet was made (he had Kings).

I was furious, accepted the ruling, told him he was a scum-sucking angle-shooter, and busted him out (again) about an hour later.

Since that day, I've been a strong proponent of both the forward motion rule, and the advantages of using and enforcing a defined betting line. The use of both prevent more angle-shooting and unclear betting situations than they will ever harm a new or inexperienced player.
 
The focus should be on verbalizing your action first. If you say "raise 50" then you can put the chips in however you want without causing any confusion.

I dislike betting lines and forward motion rules because it allows for some nittery and arguments. In following from what Dr. S said...verbalizing action is binding and leaves little room for confusion or angle shooting.
 
Don’t like the practice—it seems undisciplined at best, and angle-shooty at worst.

That said, I agree with the poster above that if you have a private game where the players are friends who trust each other, it’s not such a big deal... But I still try to discourage it in my own game. Some habits, though, are hard to break. (I’ve got one guy who has played poker since the 1980s, who *still* routinely lifts his cards way up in front of his face, and sometimes even take them off the table and looks at them in his lap. Urging him to keep the cards on the table where we all can see them has made no difference, so the group gave up. It is easier to indulge his bad habit because he is a terrible player and the #1 donator to our game....)

At a casino I think the hovering-with-a-stack-then-dropping-a-few-chips move marks a player as either inexperienced, douchey, or lazy. It isn’t really easier to make your bet this way, and it only causes potential problems.
 

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