Why I think Big O is a bad game (1 Viewer)

Legend5555

Full House
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
4,575
Reaction score
7,517
Location
Georgia
This is more to just start up a fun and interesting conversation.

I actually like Big O. But I think it's an overall bad game.

The problem with Big O, is that players that know what they are doing have a MASSIVE edge over players that don't. Truly massive. I think a good Big O player against any average lineup will probably be winning like 80-90% of their sessions.

When all players know what they are doing, it's basically everyone just flipping coins. There isn't enough bluffing in Big O. It's hard for there to be a ton since with 5 cards, the big hands tend to be out there a lot. Not that there is no bluffing mind you. Just that it's hard for there to be as much bluffing as in NLHE or 2-7 Single. Or even PLO.

As a better than average player. I love Big O. It's an easy gane to just print money at when you play against people that aren't very good. I remember my first exposure to it. We played a 25c/50c NL/PL 1/2 FL dealer's choice back in 2007. $100 cap buy in. Someone called Big O. I got into a hand where I flopped a wrap, nut low draw, nut flush draw on a Q high board. And got it in on the flop against QQxxx no low draw. This was early on in my mixed game play, but even then I knew that I was going to just destroy these players at that game.

It's a bad game because it causes bad players to go broke too quickly. And when good players play each other, it's boring.

Thoughts? Any game you think is even worse? For what reasons?
 
Last edited:
The problem with Big O, is that players that know what they are doing have a MASSIVE edge over players that don't

I agree with this statement.
When all players know what they are doing, it's basically everyone just flipping coins.

This is a different story. Big O is a favorite amongst my group. My core groups skill set is for the most part fairly close. Except with @Sprouty plays ;) I think there is less "flipping" in this game than most of our other mixed games.

There isn't enough bluffing in Big O

There really shouldn't be a ton of bluffing in mixed games. There is some, but its very situational. IMO, the reason why is that the higher the variance game, the better your starting hands should be. I learned this from @ChaosRock on our trip back from @Mr Tree meet up awhile back.
 
I mean serveal of the mix games are pretty insane odds wise. Scarney for example... most of us love playing it, but the game is constantly evolving, stacks moving around as your amazing hand 1 Street ago is now trash because you had to discard a key point. Awesome because someone could have a 5 card 7 AAA22, but also just true gambling in that one.

IMO it seems like most meet ups gravitate to several versions of Drawmaha and personally I think it is the best of the mixed games. Rather Draw2maha, Siveten, Drawmaha 21, Drawaha 49. I realize that most of these are probably not played online, but I typically enjoy these or even Double Board H/H 5 card (gods game) over Big O. Like the OP states, when the whole table knows how to play we are all looking for nut low wraps, large flops draw little action as people learn not to play for half, just not that great of a game. Drawaha variants with no low allow for an obviously much wider range of action. So overall I agree @Legend5555
 
There really shouldn't be a ton of bluffing in mixed games. There is some, but its very situational. IMO, the reason why is that the higher the variance game, the better your starting hands should be. I learned this from @ChaosRock on our trip back from @Mr Tree meet up awhile back.
It depends on the game to some extent. But in split pot games, generally there is going to be less bluffing just by the nature of the game. "Bluffs" in big bet split pot are more "I have a near lock one way and a good draw the other and want to push you off your equity."

Plus, anytime you increase the number of hole cards, the ranges that play on post flop are just so much stronger that playing anything "marginal" is a terrible idea. Which also means when big money goes in, it's typically just strong hands clashing. It's often correct to just play super tight in a game like Big O since making nut hands is the priority.

I remember watching the PLO8 FT from the WSOP a few years back. It was Nick Schulman vs someone I can't remember off the top of my head. And basically no one was putting any money in without something going on both ways. It was incredibly boring. But it's correct.
 
I mean serveal of the mix games are pretty insane odds wise. Scarney for example... most of us love playing it, but the game is constantly evolving, stacks moving around as your amazing hand 1 Street ago is now trash because you had to discard a key point. Awesome because someone could have a 5 card 7 AAA22, but also just true gambling in that one.

IMO it seems like most meet ups gravitate to several versions of Drawmaha and personally I think it is the best of the mixed games. Rather Draw2maha, Siveten, Drawmaha 21, Drawaha 49. I realize that most of these are probably not played online, but I typically enjoy these or even Double Board H/H 5 card (gods game) over Big O. Like the OP states, when the whole table knows how to play we are all looking for nut low wraps, large flops draw little action as people learn not to play for half, just not that great of a game. Drawaha variants with no low allow for an obviously much wider range of action. So overall I agree @Legend5555
I really like standard Dramaha exactly because the ranges can be wider and the draw hand is so much more disguised than the PLO half. Makes for a much more interesting game.
 
As someone with only a bit of experience playing mixed games, PLO8 and Big O are nut peddling games that tight, aggressive players like myself often struggle with. There's no room in these games for risk adverse players. The best, most skilled players are the ones with good table reads and have the experience that can ride out the variance and pick their spots to extract the most value.

In my experience with these games, there's not much preflop raising and there's a lot of bingo playing. My group just like me is too inexperienced to play it differently. Personally, my money isn't going in on these games unless I have a nut low draw and a good high hand that can improve. On board textures that only allow me to have 2nd or 3rd nutted low hands and flush draws, I find myself folding pretty quickly.
 
Last edited:
It's a bad game because it causes bad players to go broke too quickly. And when good players play each other, it's boring.
This is big-bet Omaha in general regardless of the variant. It works better in casinos than it does in a home game setting because in casinos, there's usually a list of players waiting to get into the game.

Playing against 'good' players requires a different approach. If you understand how good players think, you can make the proper adjustments and moves to tell them a convincing story. So bluffing is less about what you're holding and what you can credibly represent. In order to pull this off, you need opponents savvy enough to come to the conclusion that 'if I held xyz that's how I'd probably play it'.

Recognizing blocker bets and other semi-advanced plays are also ways to move people off of hands. But it's very opponent-specific.

Thoughts? Any game you think is even worse? For what reasons?
2-7 & Badeucey. Because straights count against you, even if you're drawing one you're usually drawing really thin.

Holdem & Razz too - any game where there's a shortage of playable starting hands and most hands go to the flop/3rd Street heads up is boring AF.
 
Your reasoning is pretty sound, but for bad players, they really get tired of getting pounded around in holdem by studied players that can just lean on preflop equities and beat the crap out of them. PLO in general gives the action players a little more leeway in calling preflop at least less incorrect and seeing a flop. I know you are specifically talking about BigO, but the same factors apply. Preflop, it is less incorrect (I did not say correct) to just limp with a wide range and play post flop. Yes, you can get in hot water post flop VERY EASY and go broke quickly, but at least you feel like you are gambling again. I just can't imagine sucking at holdem and still wanting to play. In BigO, you can suck and drag some big pots from time to time.

Also, try playing 5 card PLO for a few days, then going back to NLHE full ring. Bore to the Ring.

Online at least, all the action players are playing some type of omaha.
 
This is big-bet Omaha in general regardless of the variant. It works better in casinos than it does in a home game setting because in casinos, there's usually a list of players waiting to get into the game.

Playing against 'good' players requires a different approach. If you understand how good players think, you can make the proper adjustments and moves to tell them a convincing story. So bluffing is less about what you're holding and what you can credibly represent. In order to pull this off, you need opponents savvy enough to come to the conclusion that 'if I held xyz that's how I'd probably play it'.

Recognizing blocker bets and other semi-advanced plays are also ways to move people off of hands. But it's very opponent-specific.


2-7 & Badeucey. Because straights count against you, even if you're drawing one you're usually drawing really thin.

Holdem & Razz too - any game where there's a shortage of playable starting hands and most hands go to the flop/3rd Street heads up is boring AF.
Razz is freaking horrendous. One level in a horse game, fine. But anything more than that - the cards pretty much play themselves.
 
This is big-bet Omaha in general regardless of the variant. It works better in casinos than it does in a home game setting because in casinos, there's usually a list of players waiting to get into the game.
The issue is exacerbated in a split pot game though. And the split pot also makes the variance MUCH smaller when you know what you are doing. A good Big O player should be getting scooped almost never. And since most pots go multiway, bluffing is scarce to non-existent. Like I said, there are times you can do it. But it's a MUCH less important part of the game in most average line ups.

Holdem & Razz too - any game where there's a shortage of playable starting hands and most hands go to the flop/3rd Street heads up is boring AF.
I actually very much disagree. Taking pots heads up is way more interesting than playing multiway. When all you have to do is worry about one other player, you can narrow things down and make more creative plays. You are forced to play more straightforward in multiway pots. Just play mostly for value. THAT to me is boring. It may be more lucrative. But it's boring. That said, I also wouldn't want to play exclusively heads up either. I want a balance of making money and ability to hand read and be creative.

But this is likely part of the reason I'm not a fan of all the big bet circus games. When equites all run super close pre flop / pre draw, then it's often correct to get in there wide if no one is raising. Then it's just nut peddling. Zzzzzzz.... zzzzzzz.... zzzzzz....

I'm not sure, but I believe if you are playing good Big O strategy, you might actually be playing LESS hands than you would in NLHE. At least as a % of the total hands possible. But it might be close.
 
Your reasoning is pretty sound, but for bad players, they really get tired of getting pounded around in holdem by studied players that can just lean on preflop equities and beat the crap out of them. PLO in general gives the action players a little more leeway in calling preflop at least less incorrect and seeing a flop. I know you are specifically talking about BigO, but the same factors apply. Preflop, it is less incorrect (I did not say correct) to just limp with a wide range and play post flop. Yes, you can get in hot water post flop VERY EASY and go broke quickly, but at least you feel like you are gambling again. I just can't imagine sucking at holdem and still wanting to play. In BigO, you can suck and drag some big pots from time to time.

Also, try playing 5 card PLO for a few days, then going back to NLHE full ring. Bore to the Ring.

Online at least, all the action players are playing some type of omaha.
What's funny though is if anyone is halfway intelligent about how to play Big O, they will crush the bad players even worse in Big O than they would in Hold Em due to the lower variance. I don't think it's even close or comparable. People don't seem to notice though because getting quartered isn't getting felted. Big O has less variance than NLHE for a good player since good players should never be getting less than a quarter of the pot.
 
Razz is freaking horrendous. One level in a horse game, fine. But anything more than that - the cards pretty much play themselves.
Not even I would argue playing Razz for more than a round at a time would not be much fun. But Razz isn't a straightforward as people tend to make it out to be. There is a lot of hand reading to be done in Razz. Even so, the game can be quite frustrating as it seems whenever you start with 3 to a wheel, you often just go banana, banana, fold.
 
Razz is freaking horrendous. One level in a horse game, fine. But anything more than that - the cards pretty much play themselves.
Yeah, we did a razz tournament here one night. Seemed like a great idea. For about 15 minutes.
Personally, my money isn't going in on these games unless I have a nut low draw and a good high hand that can improve.
For Big O, I think this is a mistake. There’s no low on like what, 60% of the hands? And then when there is a low, you’re getting quartered a real percent of the time? Is there a book in this game? I’d like to read it. I think people are way overplaying their low hands pre, on the regular.
Obviously wheels are nice, but I don’t mind playing (and even raising pre) with high only hands. You just have to know when to shut it down.
 
Yeah, we did a razz tournament here one night. Seemed like a great idea. For about 15 minutes.

For Big O, I think this is a mistake. There’s no low on like what, 60% of the hands? And then when there is a low, you’re getting quartered a real percent of the time? Is there a book in this game? I’d like to read it. I think people are way overplaying their low hands pre, on the regular.
Obviously wheels are nice, but I don’t mind playing (and even raising pre) with high only hands. You just have to know when to shut it down.
Read Scoop by Greg Vail. And then begin printing.
 
Yeah, we did a razz tournament here one night. Seemed like a great idea. For about 15 minutes.

For Big O, I think this is a mistake. There’s no low on like what, 60% of the hands? And then when there is a low, you’re getting quartered a real percent of the time? Is there a book in this game? I’d like to read it. I think people are way overplaying their low hands pre, on the regular.
Obviously wheels are nice, but I don’t mind playing (and even raising pre) with high only hands. You just have to know when to shut it down.
There are books on PLO8 and Big O by Greg Vail. I've not read them. But they are pretty much the only books exclusively on the subject. They guy has been playing PLO8 and Big O for a living for years. Some of the claims he makes seem crazy but having played Big O a decent amount, i'm inclined to believe that if they are embelished, it's not by much. He said his lifetime win rate in 1/2 Big O is over $100/hr. And that a good win rate in Big O should be over 40bb/100 against standard line ups.
 
Yeah, we did a razz tournament here one night. Seemed like a great idea. For about 15 minutes.

For Big O, I think this is a mistake. There’s no low on like what, 60% of the hands? And then when there is a low, you’re getting quartered a real percent of the time? Is there a book in this game? I’d like to read it. I think people are way overplaying their low hands pre, on the regular.
Obviously wheels are nice, but I don’t mind playing (and even raising pre) with high only hands. You just have to know when to shut it down.
Yeah, it goes without saying that of three cards 9 or higher come out on the flop, I'm not playing for a low :wtf:
 
Among good players, Big O is a game where the chips gets pushed around except for a few big cooler hands a night in my experience. It is a little more mechanical than hold'em, and as someone suggested you should actually play tighter ranges pre - there a lot of hands in this game you'd rather not "hit" because they are going to lend themselves to second best hands.

The three biggest mistakes (outside the above mentioned not tightening up pre) I see people make in this game that causes them to bleed:
  • Assuming players are bluffing as often as they are in hold'em. If they're decent, they just aren't.
  • Not recognizing all the hands that should continue on certain flop textures and betting when they are not as ahead as they think they are. "I have top set on a :2d: :4d::qh: board and potted it - what are these three donks doing calling me?" Pot control is a huge part of this game, and outside of flopping quads, every hand (even top set) is either a drawing hand or a hand that needs to dodge the turn and river
  • Overvaluing strong hands that are not the nuts (e.g. K high flushes, straights on paired or flushed boards, sets on boards with straight possibilities, and the ever dreaded top two pair on a wet flop)
 
Among good players, Big O is a game where the chips gets pushed around except for a few big cooler hands a night in my experience. It is a little more mechanical than hold'em, and as someone suggested you should actually play tighter ranges pre - there a lot of hands in this game you'd rather not "hit" because they are going to lend themselves to second best hands.

The three biggest mistakes (outside the above mentioned not tightening up pre) I see people make in this game that causes them to bleed:
  • Assuming players are bluffing as often as they are in hold'em. If they're decent, they just aren't.
  • Not recognizing all the hands that should continue on certain flop textures and betting when they are not as ahead as they think they are. "I have top set on a :2d: :4d::qh: board and potted it - what are these three donks doing calling me?" Pot control is a huge part of this game, and outside of flopping quads, every hand (even top set) is either a drawing hand or a hand that needs to dodge the turn and river
  • Overvaluing strong hands that are not the nuts (e.g. K high flushes, straights on paired or flushed boards, sets on boards with straight possibilities, and the ever dreaded top two pair on a wet flop)
Greg Vail played on a few live streams playing Big O, and he played extremely tight pre. And just check folded many boards where he didn't just smash the flop.
 
I play a lot of big o and consider it my best/favorite game. I agree thou that the quality of the game depends entirely on the line up. I would never play this game in a casino with all the nit bags. That would be unbearable. I play in home games (including the animal house) where are the tables are must move - if you play like a nit you must move along (not invited back). And believe me we have had plenty of players that think they are going to snipe their way to a win. F that. Be gone. To make the game good you need gamblers. Aggression with 5 cards to a hand leads to chaos and that’s where I thrive. big o played right is awesome.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom