Who plays triple draw? Play this one with me. (1 Viewer)

[DoubleEagle]

Fancy plays only work vs the better players who are often themselves are making fancy plays.

Important concept to learn.

 

[APatHand]

It all goes to show why playing very rough 9's out of position is just not a good idea.

Now, if this was NL single draw 2-7 ...

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

It all goes to show why playing very rough 9's out of position is just not a good idea.

Now, if this was NL single draw 2-7 ...

Right but 267 is definitely a hand worth opening. If it's a table where 4 people are gonna draw though you better be drawing too, because it's very unlikely your rough 9 will hold up.

 

[honkydevil]

I don’t have much to add but I’m enjoying the discussion on 2-7. So a 987xx can be a trouble hand.

Isn’t holding the 6 also not great because you can’t make the nuts? Or do you just try to draw to an 8 low?

 

[colter ripton]

I am enjoying this thread also. I havent played much 2-7 or really that many mixed games period. I do want to get more into mixed games though and would love to see more strategy threads on them.

 

[Legend5555]

NL 2-7 single draw is probably my favorite game. Hardly ever get to play it.

 

[detroitdad]

I am enjoying this thread also. I havent played much 2-7 or really that many mixed games period. I do want to get more into mixed games though and would love to see more strategy threads on them.

Just play them like @MatB does. All In to find out where your at?

 

[MatB]

Just play them like @MatB does. All In to find out where your at?

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/route69-aka-killmenow.45601/#post-849005

 

[mrplacey]

Also chiming in to commend the limit game discussion! I've never played any in person, but would like to learn the strategy and introduce some to my group eventually.

You also get to build a limit set, which is a plus.

 

[FDLmold]

In ss2, negreanu taught me to hate having a six in my hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

Also chiming in to commend the limit game discussion! I've never played any in person, but would like to learn the strategy and introduce some to my group eventually.

You also get to build a limit set, which is a plus.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/chipco-mixed-limit-set-pr0n.30261/

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay, on with the story.

With only 1 draw left I don't think drawing 2 here is the right play

Reraise the "aggressive" Villain and stand pat, try to get him to break a hand that is ahead of yours with only 1 draw left

This is exactly what hero decided to do. And @Anthony Martino naiiled it in the first response. Yes, 9-8 is not a very strong hand, but it is a favorite against a one card draw.

Hero is aware that villian is more than capable of plays like this.

Does villain ever raise convertible Jacks or tens in pos? Since hero will draw first, does calling and patting ever induce villain to break a convertible without having to 3 bet turn? If we call, we are pretty much committed to patting and calling down I think.

So here is the thought processes.

The upsides hero sees to raising are as follows.
1) Hero still keeps nuttier hands in his range as he has not yet drawn and only taken an aggressive action at every opportunity.
2) Villain would probably have to respond to the 3 bet by drawing, even if villain has a better hand. (Pretty much all 9s have hero beat, for example.)
3) Flatting and going pat probably does not make any sense because hero does not have this play with nuttier hands in the overall strategy.
4) Villian is unlikely to 4-bet with a drawing hand here. Remember in Minnesota, we play five bets, villain is risking additional wager on top of the raise if he decides to 4-bet light here.

On an aside, I think it is significant that hero holds a deuce here. This reduces the possible ways villain could have 8-5 or better here. (All of those hands require a deuce.) So while I think the majority of villain's pat hands v hero breaks beat 9-8, it's irrelevant if villain draws, 9-8 is usually going to hold up.

Here is the MAJOR downside to this decision
1) Hero has no good plan if four bet. This would scream Villain isn't drawing and made something nutty to the point that standing pat is bad, and drawing to 8-7 is bad. It really would be call and draw 2, or this is a 3-bet/fold spot.

Thankfully for hero, that didn't happen.

Villain just called. Hero follows through on the plan and raps again. Villiain takes one.

Hero first to act after the 3rd draw, there are now 12 big bets in the pot. What should he do next?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hero first to act after the 3rd draw. What should he do next?

I don't see much upside in betting, unless we think if villain makes a better 9 they will fold it?

I guess check-call at this point since it gives our aggressive villain an opportunity to try and bluff at it?

 

[Legend5555]

Seems like a check call.

 

[BGinGA]

Blast it in there. I hate money.

 

[DrStrange]

check / call. The jig is up - villain is going to call with almost anything that beats hero. I guess it is possible villain will call with worse hoping to pick off a bluff - he is getting pretty good odds. But I think Hero is more likely to get raised by a winning hand than get called by a loser.

Keep in mind this is limit poker - the difference between winners and losers is a handful of bets per hour. I think betting here is something like a 1/2 big bet mistake when win rates are rarely more than three big bets an hour.

One up side to letting villain bet with the best hand is Hero's hand goes in the muck if he is losing.

Hero's fancy play "worked" or maybe villain's fancy play failed. Hero's rotten nine is a sizable favorite vs a one card draw.

Good job, win or lose -=- DrStrange

 

[BGinGA]

Another upside to betting is if villain missed -- and folds -- hero doesn't have to show his hand. This is huge, imo. If it goes check-check, villain gains valuable info whether he hit or not. And if planning on check-calling (potentially losing one bet), better for hero to fire it off than call, since there is legitimate fold equity here.

Whether or not you call a villain raise depends on how much you hate money.

 

[APatHand]

Does the villain think the hero can snow four streets?

 

[DrStrange]

I am reconsidering how many bad hands villain might call with, maybe it is enough to value bet. I think there is no chance villain is folding a better nine for one last bet - the only value is getting called by worse.

Lets say villain is playing 8-6-3-2 though it doesn't matter much. Villain wins with a nine (3), seven (4), five (4) or four (4) = 15 cards. Let's take out three to account for the two folded hands that kept a total of five cards. So 12 cards make villain a winner. This also allows a cushion to account for the times villain doesn't raise with a winner.

villain is getting huge odds to call a last bet. How bad a hand could he have and still call? There are 4 tens, 4 jacks, 4 queens, 4 kings and four aces. If Hero thinks villain will look him up with as bad a hand as a king, then the reward is worth the risk - i.e. there is value in a final bet. If Hero doesn't think that villain will look him up with a really weak made hand then perhaps the check / call line makes more money.

In the end I still think Hero is better off with a check/call line. But the bet/call line is not as far behind as I had though - maybe only a couple of dollars -EV.

DrStrange

PS - can't rule out some chance of a crazy bluff if Hero checks. Though I have serous doubts that would happen. Villain's missed hands most win vs Hero's snow hands anyway. Making a bluff a bluff made with he winning hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

check / call. The jig is up - villain is going to call with almost anything that beats hero. I guess it is possible villain will call with worse hoping to pick off a bluff - he is getting pretty good odds. But I think Hero is more likely to get raised by a winning hand than get called by a loser.

This felt like the easy decision at the time, but I do appreciate the secondary analysis you offered below.

villain is getting huge odds to call a last bet. How bad a hand could he have and still call? There are 4 tens, 4 jacks, 4 queens, 4 kings and four aces. If Hero thinks villain will look him up with as bad a hand as a king, then the reward is worth the risk - i.e. there is value in a final bet. If Hero doesn't think that villain will look him up with a really weak made hand then perhaps the check / call line makes more money.

This is the right way to frame question, but I think it's too optimistic to think villain is calling a guy that rapped 3 times with a king or worse. If this was the truth, then I agree, it's a clear bet. If this were a different situation and hero drew one going to the river and made a 9 against villain also drawing one, then I think hero would be more inclined to go for value, hero could assume he can win more bluff-catching calls.

In reality, I think at best hero can expect to be called by a 10, and it really only makes sense for villain to have a 10 if he drew it on his last card. There is no way villian gets to this point in the hand and decides to draw one to a 10 going at the end.

So hero checks the river intending to call. But then we get into the paradox of the big pot on the river in limit poker. Check planning to call seems obvious given the pot size, will be getting 13:1. However, the paradox is that villain is aware of that as well so if Villain does bet, is he really bluffing the 7% of the time required to make this a good call? Hero is probably also at the very bottom of his range for a 3 pat hand. Is check fold somehow the right line? Then again, hero holds a 7 and 2, so that does reduce the combinations of bet-able hands that villain can make, so maybe that alone compels hero to call?

None of that matters anyway, villain checks behind. Hero tables and wins. Villain is visibly upset. So hero assumes he probably broke a better 9 on the 3rd draw. At the same time, hero can give credit that villain could have this expression whether or not he actually broke a winner.

But yes, in the couple years that 2-7 has been in the 10/20 mix rotation, this was the most interesting hand I played.

I definitely agree if the draws went different on the first round, drawing 2 to 7-6-2 is the better play, and surely what I would have done if facing 3 bets before the draw.

This game truly is fascinating the more you think about it because the draws are as important of a data point as the bets themselves.

 

[Legend5555]

Great hand! I've played more single draw than triple, and I think I would have played it similarly given what people drew up till the 3 bet after the 2nd draw. Of course I don't play with anyone that would ever make that play the villain did, though I have made that raise in pos against people before. Which is what led to my questions about how opponent plays convertibles.

Good stuff.

 

[BGinGA]

I still think firing is better than checking.

 

[JustinInMN]

Great hand! I've played more single draw than triple, and I think I would have played it similarly given what people drew up till the 3 bet after the 2nd draw. Of course I don't play with anyone that would ever make that play the villain did, though I have made that raise in pos against people before. Which is what led to my questions about how opponent plays convertibles.

Good stuff.

I do think villian's play on the 2nd draw was brilliant. This villian is posed to make testing raises in position in other games as well. he's not the ideal guy to have on the left for sure, but there wasn't much for seat selection. Game was full and once someone gets in this game, they usually stay a couple hours at least.

And I would have been far more tempted to break 9-7 than 9-8. I do have that play in my arsenal as well and people that haven't put a lot of thought into triple draw don't know how to defend it.

I still think firing is better than checking.

I do agree the reason you gave may have some merit. But it does feel like there isn't much value if I am literally only targeting potential calls from a ten that villain would have had to have drawn. I don't think he's making a big laydown with a 9 (just about all of which are better than mine) at this price.

Also I don't worry about tabling edge case hands a ton. He might not assume this is the worst hand with which I could make this play. (But I am pretty sure this is.)

 

[FDLmold]

I wish four winds south bend 1) had a mix game and 2) I could afford to play it. I'd make it my mission to get rolled for that game. Nothing makes me happier at the poker table than a mixed cash game.