Tourney Who acts first ? (2 Viewers)

Heads-up, who acts first pre-flop when SB = BB (ex: 25-25) ?

  • Small blind (dealer)

    Votes: 39 90.7%
  • Big blind

    Votes: 4 9.3%

  • Total voters
    43
Easiest way to understand it is by looking at a single forced blind bet situation, which is posted by the player with worst position post-flop.... and that player posting the forced bet will NEVER be the dealer position, since he always has the best position post-flop.

When adding a second forced bet (SB), the other forced bet (BB) is pushed forward one position, rather than having a player with superior post-flop position defending a blind bet amount (the only reason the dealer posts the SB when heads-up is because there are no other players left to do so).

And along those lines, it makes some logical sense to not even use a small blind forced bet when heads-up, rather than have a superior post-flop position player with forced blind chips in the pot.
 
I meant no disrespect late last night with my post. The poll escaped my attention the first time I clicked on the thread, therefore I was surprised to see it when I revisited the thread. I found it somewhat humorous because the subject is not up for debate. It doesn't matter what the consensus might be.



Hold-em is a game of position. Blinds simply start the action. You still have two blinds to post heads-up, the same as you do in a full ring game. Instead of letting the blinds guide your thinking, you should be thinking about the role position plays in hold-em.

The dealer has the advantage of determining the amount of aggression heads-up knowing that his opponent will be playing out of position post-flop. Look at the following action from the BB's perspective. Small blind raises pre-flop. Big blind calls with 10,8 off-suit. The flop comes A,J,six. How does the BB play his hand against the pre-flop raiser? What happens if he folds every time he has 10,8 off suit or weaker to pre-flop aggression?

Hopefully, my feeble efforts at explaining the why for the rule is helpful. Maybe someone else on the forum can do a better job answering the crux of your question.
Believe me, I completely understand position. You should read my replies in strategy. My point is that I'm still not entirely following how a single rule encompasses both full ring and heads up as stated by BG when multiple blinds are involved.

For a single blind, it makes sense. But if the idea is to look at it by position, then the SB in a regular game should act last preflop as he has the worst position post flop. But that's not what happens.
Easiest way to understand it is by looking at a single forced blind bet situation, which is posted by the player with worst position post-flop.... and that player posting the forced bet will NEVER be the dealer position, since he always has the best position post-flop.

When adding a second forced bet (SB), the other forced bet (BB) is pushed forward one position, rather than having a player with superior post-flop position defending a blind bet amount (the only reason the dealer posts the SB when heads-up is because there are no other players left to do so).

And along those lines, it makes some logical sense to not even use a small blind forced bet when heads-up, rather than have a superior post-flop position player with forced blind chips in the pot.
I and I think the others get that. It still doesn't answer the why or how we know this was the original intent.

So why is the most positionally disadvantaged player not given the last action preflop in all scenarios under all numbers of blinds?

Also if the reasoning is to assist the positionally disadvantaged player as you say here, doesn't that make my original answer also partly correct? It just happens to naturally arise from what you've said.
 
If the blinds were reversed and the player on the button posted the big blind, that would violate the rules for order of play in hold'em. By rule, the big blind is required to act last before the flop. Therefore, the player on the button must post the small blind in heads-up play.

If the dealer was the big blind and decided to fold, he would be folding his big blind to the small blind. Folding pre-flop for just the cost of small blind is part of the basic advantage of having the the button.
 
Believe me, I completely understand position. You should read my replies in strategy. My point is that I'm still not entirely following how a single rule encompasses both full ring and heads up as stated by BG when multiple blinds are involved.

For a single blind, it makes sense. But if the idea is to look at it by position, then the SB in a regular game should act last preflop as he has the worst position post flop. But that's not what happens.

I and I think the others get that. It still doesn't answer the why or how we know this was the original intent.

So why is the most positionally disadvantaged player not given the last action preflop in all scenarios under all numbers of blinds?

Also if the reasoning is to assist the positionally disadvantaged player as you say here, doesn't that make my original answer also partly correct? It just happens to naturally arise from what you've said.


 
If I were to change anything, it would be to switch the players posting the small and big blinds, have pre-flop action start on the SB (2nd from dealer), and action in non-raised pots finishing with the BB (left of dealer). Fixes everything, and still stays consisent with the original intent of the rules.
 
I've just never thought about this all that deeply. And now that I am, given what BG has said, it strikes me that the way multiple posted blinds work and helping the most positionally disadvantaged player preflop don't really work together all that well.

But whatever. No real sense in going any deeper on this.

Edited for bad swipe typing.
 
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If I were to change anything, it would be to switch the players posting the small and big blinds, have pre-flop action start on the SB (2nd from dealer), and action on non-raised pot finishing with the BB (left of dealer). Fixes everything, and still stays consisent with the original intent of the rules.
Best me to what I was thinking.
 
Easiest way to understand it is by looking at a single forced blind bet situation, which is posted by the player with worst position post-flop.... and that player posting the forced bet will NEVER be the dealer position, since he always has the best position post-flop.

When adding a second forced bet (SB), the other forced bet (BB) is pushed forward one position, rather than having a player with superior post-flop position defending a blind bet amount (the only reason the dealer posts the SB when heads-up is because there are no other players left to do so).

And along those lines, it makes some logical sense to not even use a small blind forced bet when heads-up, rather than have a superior post-flop position player with forced blind chips in the pot.

This doesn’t make any sense. You could, in your weird scenario, push the big blind forward to the dealer and have the non-dealer post the SB.

Im researching to see if there is some history on the matter, but so far coming up empty. Looks like the best explanation is “button always gets positional advantage on all streets”
 
This doesn’t make any sense. You could, in your weird scenario, push the big blind forward to the dealer and have the non-dealer post the SB.
Which part doesn't make sense to you?
 
This doesn’t make any sense. You could, in your weird scenario, push the big blind forward to the dealer and have the non-dealer post the SB.

Im researching to see if there is some history on the matter, but so far coming up empty. Looks like the best explanation is “button always gets positional advantage on all streets”
The concept does fall apart a bit the more blinds you add. I'm glad someone other than me said it. I think he is still ignoring me.
 
Stick to The Rule and everything else works out.

The Rule: Big (last) Blind acts last on the first round of betting (while still active in the pot) and the (active) player to the left of the button acts first after the flop.
So, since the big blind acts last on the first round of betting and there are only two players, the player who is not the big (last) blind acts first.

When dealing blind games: the active player to the left of the button gets the first card. So, if the small blind has the button, the big (last) blind gets the first card dealt.

In the case where there in only one blind, the blind (last/only) player acts last on the first round of betting.

If there are seven blinds the last blind to the left of the dealer (button) acts last on the first round of betting.
(ps. Straddles are not allowed in tournaments, unless you are playing some sort of scrub donkey tournament.)
 
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I see I have some catching up to do :)

I meant no disrespect late last night with my post
None taken. I actually wasn't referring to what you wrote, but I can see how it can have been perceived like that.
Hold-em is a game of position. Blinds simply start the action. You still have two blinds to post heads-up, the same as you do in a full ring game. Instead of letting the blinds guide your thinking, you should be thinking about the role position plays in hold-em.

The dealer has the advantage of determining the amount of aggression heads-up knowing that his opponent will be playing out of position post-flop. Look at the following action from the BB's perspective. Small blind raises pre-flop. Big blind calls with 10,8 off-suit. The flop comes A,J,six. How does the BB play his hand against the pre-flop raiser? What happens if he folds every time he has 10,8 off suit or weaker to pre-flop aggression?

Hopefully, my feeble efforts at explaining the why for the rule is helpful. Maybe someone else on the forum can do a better job answering the crux of your question.

From this perspective the rule seems to be there to preserve the dealers advantage, not reduce it. Interesting!

If the blinds were reversed and the player on the button posted the big blind, that would violate the rules for order of play in hold'em. By rule, the big blind is required to act last before the flop. Therefore, the player on the button must post the small blind in heads-up play.
Having the dealer be the big blind heads up would still achieve this. SB would act first predlop and BB last.
If the dealer was the big blind and decided to fold, he would be folding his big blind to the small blind.
I'm not sure why the BB would act first? He has placed the larger forced bet, so he is awaiting SB's action. It would be like the battle of the blinds.

My point is that I'm still not entirely following how a single rule encompasses both full ring and heads up as stated by BG when multiple blinds are involved.

For a single blind, it makes sense. But if the idea is to look at it by position, then the SB in a regular game should act last preflop as he has the worst position post flop. But that's not what happens.
Yeah, I didn't grasp the position argument either, but my excuse is that I had surgery today and am still a bit lightheaded.
(Not to start a political discussion, but it cost me about 20 bucks ;) )

The Rule: Big (last) Blind acts last on the first round of betting (while still active in the pot) and the (active) player to the left of the button acts first after the flop.
This would still be achieved if the BB had the button. Again, it would be exactly like in the battle of the blinds. BB would always act last, and the player to the left of the dealer (i.e. the SB) would always act first. This would be the most consistent rule IMO.

Oddly enough, the two arguments that make most sense to me so far are
1) Reducing the dealers advantage by letting him act first preflop, and
2) Preserving the dealers advantage by letting him set the tone with his preflop raise in a hand where he will have position for the rest of the hand (if I understood mojo correctly)
 
This would still be achieved if the BB had the button. Again, it would be exactly like in the battle of the blinds. BB would always act last, and the player to the left of the dealer (i.e. the SB) would always act first. This would be the most consistent rule IMO.

Oddly enough, the two arguments that make most sense to me so far are
1) Reducing the dealers advantage by letting him act first preflop, and
2) Preserving the dealers advantage by letting him set the tone with his preflop raise in a hand where he will have position for the rest of the hand (if I understood mojo correctly)

There are two separate conversations going on. APatHands response seems to be to the original post, does the D/SB or BB act first preflop (we are nearly unanimous it’s the D/SB).

As to the more controversial conversation (why is it D/SB vs D/BB), between those two options it can only be #2. The small blind has an advantage by committing less money blind.
 
There are two separate conversations going on. APatHands response seems to be to the original post
Oh shit. Good catch!
Well:
my excuse is that I had surgery today and am still a bit lightheaded.

And just to reiterate in case someone thinks otherwise: I am just curious of the reasons behind the rule, I am perfectly happy with the rule as it is. :)
 
Probably a couple cranky old dudes in an A-5 lowball game back in early 70's decided it should be that way.

A-5 lowball players don't care too much about blinds, they play with antes ahah.

And hey I'm still enjoying this game. :) I must be cranky young dude playing A-5 lowball in the 2020's. :)
 
Probably a couple cranky old dudes in an A-5 lowball game back in early 70's decided it should be that way.
And now it’s clear why, despite the apparent lack of recorded history, BG know the rule so well.:D
Just for the record, I don't play A-5 lowball. And back in the 70's I was more interested in IU basketball, The Who concerts, and in-depth backgammon research. ;)
 
A-5 lowball players don't care too much about blinds, they play with antes ahah.

And hey I'm still enjoying this game. :) I must be cranky young dude playing A-5 lowball in the 2020's. :)
I've never seen lowball played with antes.
 
I've never seen lowball played with antes.

You're right for Triple Draw lowball. It's played with blinds. Same for NL 2-7 single draw.

But original California Lowball was played with antes as far as I know.

But I can be wrong...

[edit] I was wrong... Ante were more common in Jacks or Better. In Cali Lowball, blinds were often used.
 
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