Tourney Who acts first ?

Heads-up, who acts first pre-flop when SB = BB (ex: 25-25) ?

  • Small blind (dealer)

    Votes: 39 90.7%
  • Big blind

    Votes: 4 9.3%

  • Total voters
    43

Kid_Eastwood

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Hi,

Heads-up, pre-flop, the dealer is small blind and then is first to act.

But in levels where small blind = big blind (ex : 25-25 or 100-100), who is first to act pre-flop ? I'd say the big blind (so the player who is not dealer) but I'd like your opinion on this one...

Kid.
 

Legend5555

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Dealer. It's so the dealer doesn't have an advantage on every single street. That's the actual reason for rule.

Edit: Though i'm apparently technically wrong (see below), I still think the positional aspect is probably the best gameplay reason for having it work this way. It's at least easier to understand IMO for someone that isn't super hip to all the technical aspects of blind bets.
 
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Mr Winberg

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dealer to act first
Dealer acts first

There are of course exceptions ;-)
WickedWigglyCurassow-size_restricted.gif
 

Kid_Eastwood

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You know what else is wrong? Making this a poll question.

I did it because I could not find a formal rule for this, thus it was subject of interpretation to me.

And I saw 2 ways to interpret the rules :

1. Either we consider the SB always first to act when playing heads-up.
2. Either we consider the player at the left of the dealer button first to act if everyone posted the same blind amount.

Apparently there is a big consensus on the first option.
 

BGinGA

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I did it because I could not find a formal rule for this, thus it was subject of interpretation to me.

And I saw 2 ways to interpret the rules :

1. Either we consider the SB always first to act when playing heads-up.
2. Either we consider the player at the left of the dealer button first to act if everyone posted the same blind amount.

Apparently there is a big consensus on the first option.
The reasoning is because the forced (blind) bet always acts last pre-flop, and this is always true -- regardless of the number of players, or how many forced bets are required, or if the forced bets are equal or unequal to one another.
 

Mr Winberg

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The reasoning is because the forced (blind) bet always acts last pre-flop, and this is always true -- regardless of the number of players, or how many forced bets are required, or if the forced bets are equal or unequal to one another.

If I had never been in (or seen) a heads up situation in holdem, my first guess would have been that the BB should be the dealer. That way the BB would act last preflop as you stipulated above, and also last post-flop. This would have felt more natural and consistent for me when I was a beginner (but now I'm of course used to how it's done).

What is the reason for letting the SB be the dealer? Honest question. The way I've heard it, it's:
so the dealer doesn't have an advantage on every single street
but I've only ever read it on the internets, I've never heard it from an authority.
 

BGinGA

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If I had never been in (or seen) a heads up situation in holdem, my first guess would have been that the BB should be the dealer. That way the BB would act last preflop as you stipulated above, and also last post-flop. This would have felt more natural and consistent for me when I was a beginner (but now I'm of course used to how it's done).

What is the reason for letting the SB be the dealer? Honest question. The way I've heard it, it's:

but I've only ever read it on the internets, I've never heard it from an authority.
The forced blind bet is posted by the player(s) with the worst position after the flop, but they act last pre-flop (since their bet is placed first). That rule covers all scenarios.

The dealer in heads-up play is the SB only because he's the only other player left after the BB is posted by the player with worst position after the flop (see above). If playing with a single blind, the dealer acts first pre-flop but posts no blind.
 

Mr Winberg

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Thanks, @BGinGA.

I’m pretty sure Hu acts first.
But Hu's in the small blind?
Hu's in the small blind.

Just as we're about to finish this thread, it gets trolled by the Finnish!

Brings this gem to mind:
Wait till you read my story about Uriah Thomas Gladstone, and his son, Uriah Thomas Gladstone Jr., and their hand against Hugh Jackman and Charles Osgood.
What about Uriah's pregnant wife, Ursula aka UTG+1.
I think I've heard that one! Didn't Bobby Baldwin take it down?
Yup. HJ was UTG, UTG2 was BB, and BB was Sideshow Bob.
Actually, Mrs. Gladstone wasn’t in attendance. Uriah’s +1 that night was his British friend, Nigel Dealer, who was an member of parliament.
So Dealer, the MP, who was UTG+1, was UTG2.
 

Legend5555

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The forced blind bet is posted by the player(s) with the worst position after the flop, but they act last pre-flop (since their bet is placed first). That rule covers all scenarios.

The dealer in heads-up play is the SB only because he's the only other player left after the BB is posted by the player with worst position after the flop (see above). If playing with a single blind, the dealer acts first pre-flop but posts no blind.
Just curious. Do you have a reference for this? It's a solid reason, but i'm curious as to how it came to be given that nearly everyone who first learns the game would assume that the dealer would end up as the BB in heads up. Also, do you disagree that the forcing the dealer to act first preflop is good for the game? Because that also seems like a good reason for the blinds being the way that they are heads up.

Edit: I know the specific question had to do with when the blinds are the same, though that's not really relevant to the actual issue here. I'm genuinely curious if you, @BGinGA, know how the SB and BB situation heads up came to be. Because after taking to many people over the years, it's not intuitive to most. I totally get your explanation, just curious how you know that's the reason it's done.
 
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DoubleEagle

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If I had never been in (or seen) a heads up situation in holdem, my first guess would have been that the BB should be the dealer. That way the BB would act last preflop as you stipulated above, and also last post-flop. This would have felt more natural and consistent for me when I was a beginner (but now I'm of course used to how it's done).

What is the reason for letting the SB be the dealer? Honest question. The way I've heard it, it's:

but I've only ever read it on the internets, I've never heard it from an authority.

TDA Rule

34: Button in Heads-up

Heads-up, the small blind is the button, is dealt the last card, and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. Starting heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player has the big blind twice in a row.
 

Mr Winberg

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TDA Rule

34: Button in Heads-up

Heads-up, the small blind is the button, is dealt the last card, and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. Starting heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player has the big blind twice in a row.

Yes, I know this is the rule. I am not asking what the rule is, I am wondering why the rule is as it is. Folklore has it that it is to reduce the advantage of the button, but @BGinGA says that's wrong. Instead, it's about keeping the same pre flop order (SB then BB), and then having the forced bet (in this case the biggest forced bet) act first. I'm not sure I understood correctly, nor why this is the reason.
 

Legend5555

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Yes, I know this is the rule. I am not asking what the rule is, I am wondering why the rule is as it is. Folklore has it that it is to reduce the advantage of the button, but @BGinGA says that's wrong. Instead, it's about keeping the same pre flop order (SB then BB), and then having the forced bet (in this case the biggest forced bet) act first. I'm not sure I understood correctly, nor why this is the reason.
I tried asking. We'll see if he still has me on ignore. I'm just not convinced that when blinds were created that this much thought went into "why."
 

Kid_Eastwood

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TDA Rule

34: Button in Heads-up

Heads-up, the small blind is the button, is dealt the last card, and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. Starting heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player has the big blind twice in a row.

Thanks it's pretty clear.
I missed it.
 

Mr Winberg

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The forced blind bet is posted by the player(s) with the worst position after the flop, but they act last pre-flop (since their bet is placed first). That rule covers all scenarios.
Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't this be achieved by letting the BB be the dealer? The pre-flop order would be the same, and "they act last pre-flop" is still true since there are only two. It would be the same order as any other scenario: SB first, then BB.

Edit: Again, I'm not asking what the rule is, I'm well aware. I'm asking about the why.
 

Legend5555

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Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't this be achieved by letting the BB be the dealer? The pre-flop order would be the same, and "they act last pre-flop" is still true since there are only two. It would be the same order as any other scenario: SB first, then BB.

Edit: Again, I'm not asking what the rule is, I'm well aware. I'm asking about the why.
It's also a little wonky, because if this is the case wouldn't you have to adjust so the first person left of the dealer gets to act last preflop regardless of the number of blind bets being placed? After all, they have the worst position. I'm guessing that's supposed to be offset by having them pay a smaller blind?
 

Mr Winberg

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It's also a little wonky, because if this is the case wouldn't you have to adjust so the first person left of the dealer gets to act last preflop regardless of the number of blind bets being placed? After all, they have the worst position. I'm guessing that's supposed to be offset by having them pay a smaller blind?
I'm not sure I follow. If BB was dealer, without adjustment the SB would act first throughout the hand and BB would have position over SB, just like with any other nr of players. It would be consistent.

Now if you want to adjust to remove some dealer advantage, then I totally understand why SB is dealer. But apparently that's not the reason...
 

Legend5555

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I'm not sure I follow. If BB was dealer, without adjustment the SB would act first throughout the hand and BB would have position over SB, just like with any other nr of players. It would be consistent.

Now if you want to adjust to remove some dealer advantage, then I totally understand why SB is dealer. But apparently that's not the reason...
It wasn't referencing your fix. But the normal situation of Button, SB, BB. If it is as BG says, the person with the most disadvantaged position acts last preflop, then that person is the SB. But they are not last to act preflop, the BB is. So I assume the offset for that is the half sized blind.

I think the whole thing is a little unintuitive as it means you have to think about how many blind bets you want then work backwards from biggest to smallest for the heads up situation to make sense. Most people are going to see the button and think, "the SB goes to the next person after the button." But what's apparently the correct way of looking at it according to BG is you give last action pre to the most disadvantaged player and work the blinds around that. I'm just not sure how that works out with the SB not acting last in full ring.

I hope I'm making that more clear.
 

Mojo1312

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If I had never been in (or seen) a heads up situation in holdem, my first guess would have been that the BB should be the dealer. That way the BB would act last preflop as you stipulated above, and also last post-flop. This would have felt more natural and consistent for me when I was a beginner (but now I'm of course used to how it's done).

What is the reason for letting the SB be the dealer? Honest question. The way I've heard it, it's so the dealer doesn't have an advantage on every single street

but I've only ever read it on the internets, I've never heard it from an authority.

I meant no disrespect late last night with my post. The poll escaped my attention the first time I clicked on the thread, therefore I was surprised to see it when I revisited the thread. I found it somewhat humorous because the subject is not up for debate. It doesn't matter what the consensus might be.

But what's apparently the correct way of looking at it according to BG is you give last action pre to the most disadvantaged player and work the blinds around that. I'm just not sure how that works out with the SB not acting last in full ring.

I hope I'm making that more clear.

Hold-em is a game of position. Blinds simply start the action. You still have two blinds to post heads-up, the same as you do in a full ring game. Instead of letting the blinds guide your thinking, you should be thinking about the role position plays in hold-em.

The dealer has the advantage of determining the amount of aggression heads-up knowing that his opponent will be playing out of position post-flop. Look at the following action from the BB's perspective. Small blind raises pre-flop. Big blind calls with 10,8 off-suit. The flop comes A,J,six. How does the BB play his hand against the pre-flop raiser? What happens if he folds every time he has 10,8 off suit or weaker to pre-flop aggression?

Hopefully, my feeble efforts at explaining the why for the rule is helpful. Maybe someone else on the forum can do a better job answering the crux of your question.
 
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