When would you have sniffed this out?

dkersey

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When would you have sniffed this out?

Online Poker Bros - .5/1 NLHE
6 handed

PreFlop - I'm BB, Button makes it 4, everyone else folds, I call 3 more with A8o. Pot $8.50
I have ~$65, Button has ~$67

Flop - Ac8h8d! I flop a Boat!!! I check, Button checks. Pot $8.50

Turn - 2c. I check, Button bets $1, I call $1. Pot $10.50

River - 4c.
I bet $15 to make it look like I'm trying the steal the pot.
Button raises to $45.
I jam my remaining ~$48 (was $30 to call).
Button calls ~$18.
Pot ~$138

Cards are revealed...
 

kmccormick100

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68bb deep? The money should've all gone in on the turn. No way I'm getting away from a boat like that with less than a 200bb stack and serious re-raising / overbet jamming bets... and even then, hard pressed to fold unless they're a nit.
 

CraigT78

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When would you have sniffed this out?

Online Poker Bros - .5/1 NLHE
6 handed

PreFlop - I'm BB, Button makes it 4, everyone else folds, I call 3 more with A8o. Pot $8.50
I have ~$65, Button has ~$67

Flop - Ac8h8d! I flop a Boat!!! I check, Button checks. Pot $8.50

Turn - 2c. I check, Button bets $1, I call $1. Pot $10.50

River - 4c.
I bet $15 to make it look like I'm trying the steal the pot.
Button raises to $45.
I jam my remaining ~$48 (was $30 to call).
Button calls ~$18.
Pot ~$138

Cards are revealed...
For $67 I don't bother sniffing anything other than another beer.
 

Jimulacrum

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I sniff this out preflop. A8o is not adequate to defend your blind. Better to have something like T9s than a ragged ace. But really you can fold and give up the BB a lot before it starts costing you money.
This is a very good point.

A8 six-handed is one of those cusp hands. It's certainly raisable if you're first in the pot, or maybe on the button against a weak limper. If you're up against a reckless preflop raiser who's in there bumping it to $4 every other hand, maybe you find a 3-bet with a weak ace like this once in a while. And sometimes you can defend your BB and get some value in various ways through that approach.

But most of the time you're facing a raise, barring specific intel to the effect I've suggested above, just fold it.
 

Highli99

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This is a very good point.

A8 six-handed is one of those cusp hands. It's certainly raisable if you're first in the pot, or maybe on the button against a weak limper. If you're up against a reckless preflop raiser who's in there bumping it to $4 every other hand, maybe you find a 3-bet with a weak ace like this once in a while. And sometimes you can defend your BB and get some value in various ways through that approach.

But most of the time you're facing a raise, barring specific intel to the effect I've suggested above, just fold it.

I agree that 3 bet fold is prob better than call 6 handed
 

Han Trinh

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Stacks are shallow. You are playing range vs range. He was at the top of his range. Chalk it up to variance. That is expected.
 

Chawks45

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Lol he had aces I bet. That's fun. Insert rounders gif here
Would be great to mirror the movie if there was a Mike McDermott speech before jamming: "Yeah, I'm gonna go all in because I don't think you got the spades (or in this case, clubs)."
 

raynmanas

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yeah, i probably don't even call the preflop bet there. but if i do, i'm going broke too of course. coolers are gonna happen, just reload and try again lol.
 

Venturalvn

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You're stacks are too small to worry about sniffing anything out when you flop a boat.

I sniff this out preflop. A8o is not adequate to defend your blind. Better to have something like T9s than a ragged ace. But really you can fold and give up the BB a lot before it starts costing you money.
Both of these right here. If you were gonna play it at all pre to a raise with 65 bb, then this was the only flop you were looking for, and you're lucky to get action on it most of the time.
 

JustinInMN

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If it were a deeper shove, maybe you can bet-fold 8s full on the river? Boy that sounds sick to think about. You would be folding for fear of exactly one possible combo, and villain can possibly have combos of flushes here especially with the :8c: unaccounted for. (Though it would be a backdoor hit.) Villian probably also has combos of 8x, but is he raising those on the river without a full house?

Maybe this fold is possible on the river against a complete nit?
 

JustinInMN

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(edit, flop went check check, villian can have lots of flushes, entire rant about villain having narrow value range is moot.)
 

JustinInMN

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Turn - 2c. I check, Button bets $1, I call $1. Pot $10.50

You know, maybe there's a sizing tell here? Unless he is using a 12% of pot sizing regularly, why lay such a good price to a possible flush draw unless he isn't worried about a flush? I still think 8s full is too high in your range to fold (and it's possible he is using this sizing as a blocker bet with a flush draw himself to keep the price down or to set up a bluff on the end.) But maybe checking the river and calling is reasonable if this bet on the turn only means full houses. And the only full house you beat is 22 if that's in villian's preflop raise range.
 

Jimulacrum

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If it were a deeper shove, maybe you can bet-fold 8s full on the river? Boy that sounds sick to think about. You would be folding for fear of exactly one possible combo, and villain can possibly have combos of flushes here especially with the :8c: unaccounted for. (Though it would be a backdoor hit.) Villian probably also has combos of 8x, but is he raising those on the river without a full house?

Maybe this fold is possible on the river against a complete nit?
I don't think this fold is possible unless you're specifically against someone who only ever raises preflop with aces. Or maybe someone who only ever raises preflop with pairs and only raises post-flop when he has improved. Something like that.

Against normal players who play a rational style, folding A8 on a flop of A88 with these stack sizes is madness. Finding a fold on the turn or river would be pretty out there too.

Once that flop comes out, there's just no getting away from this hand with these stack sizes.
 

Rhodeman77

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I never would have had to sniff anything out since I folded A8o for the $4 raise. I don’t play A trash offsuite to a raise out of position. It does nothing but get you in trouble if you don’t take the pot down with a single bet.
 

IaHawk

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I think sites need to just say f’it...they want rigged, let’s give them rigged and given him pocket 8’s!
 

Legend5555

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A8o is a fold pre basically always regardless of what position the raise came from, and especially with effective stacks of only 65bb, and a 4x raise. The larger the raise size and the shorter the stack, the less you should call as a defend.

Flop check fine.

Turn, you HAVE to raise. How else you going to get more money in the pot unless it's already a cooler? He could have turned a club draw and that will certainly call. If he has a A that he didn't bet on the flop, he is also going to call. If he has trips or a boat, all the money is going in anyway. And if he has nothing the hand is already over except for MAYBE another bluff on the river, which you promptly denied him the chance of by leading into him on the river.

River, at least your lead can look like you made the flush. And given that your opponent can easily have made a flush, you just have to get it in with what is essentially the 2nd nuts (essentially because it's very unlikely he has the straight flush).

There is no "sniffing" it out here for these stack sizes once you decided to get involved.
 

Frogzilla

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A8o is a fold pre basically always regardless of what position the raise came from, and especially with effective stacks of only 65bb, and a 4x raise. The larger the raise size and the shorter the stack, the less you should call as a defend.

Flop check fine.

Turn, you HAVE to raise. How else you going to get more money in the pot unless it's already a cooler? He could have turned a club draw and that will certainly call. If he has a A that he didn't bet on the flop, he is also going to call. If he has trips or a boat, all the money is going in anyway. And if he has nothing the hand is already over except for MAYBE another bluff on the river, which you promptly denied him the chance of by leading into him on the river.

River, at least your lead can look like you made the flush. And given that your opponent can easily have made a flush, you just have to get it in with what is essentially the 2nd nuts (essentially because it's very unlikely he has the straight flush).

There is no "sniffing" it out here for these stack sizes once you decided to get involved.

I think shorter stacks reduces the IP advantage so BB should be defending wide 65bb. I haven’t done any looking at 4 bb opens vs 3 bb but hard to imagine and Ax is supposed to fold v BU here
 

Legend5555

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I think shorter stacks reduces the IP advantage so BB should be defending wide 65bb. I haven’t done any looking at 4 bb opens vs 3 bb but hard to imagine and Ax is supposed to fold v BU here
Maybe. My gut says that against a 4x open with no ante, you shouldn't really be defending hands OOP that have bad playability. But I don't use solvers, so who knows. I think it's a defend if suited. And at 3x, I think A8o is on the cusp. It's ahead of a normal raising range, but it's hard to play post flop.
 
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